cool, i really enjoyed my teaspoons/socks post earlier today cos it feels like the most for me thing i’ve written on here lately – almost like i’ve slipped into writing for an audience again which is not what i wanted my blog to be – aware of the audience yes (and my responsibility there) but writing what i want to write and what is more real than just giving a lesson…
anyways i have a feeling it’s about to head more that way and that excites me.
have heard a lot about john ellis (formerly Tree63) giving up Christianity or saying things that good christians aren’t allowed to say or something like that and i don’t want to comment on that cos i haven’t had a chance to connect with him and ask him what it’s all about – but i went on to his page and saw a comment which linked me to anne rice (the author)’s facebook page with these two comments:
Anne Rice: “For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian. I’m out. I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being “Christian” or to being part of Christianity. It’s simply impossible for me to “belong” to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten …years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.”
followed by this one: Anne Rice: “As I said below, I quit being a Christian. I’m out. In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of …Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.”
and i think i ‘get’ it – and it may be the same kind of thing John is saying, again i don’t know at all where he stands – in terms of my own stance which has been for a while now to refer to myself as a Jesus-follower rather than a christian because there seem to be Christians who follow Jesus and christians who don’t and i don’t so much want to be associated with those who don’t as if i am part of them, because clearly i am not…
again, i am not sure exactly what she is saying or what she means by it but there does seem to be an embracing Jesus, running away from religion kind of feel to it, and yeah, that i get
altho, and this is my twist, and it’s a question, do we get to do that? is it that easy? when i look at Jesus, He persevered with His bunch of people who lived and acted and spoke time and time again completely against who He was, what He was teaching them and who He wanted them to be, and yet He stuck with them… and ultimately – one Holy Spirit filling later – He transformed them and they were the ones (not a bunch of Jesus followers getting it right the whole time, the disciples!) who went on to change the world
so i get it. but i am not convinced, yet, that it is the way to go. altho it does appear to taste very nice.
i’ve read a few posts and interviews on John and stuff he’s written himself and that’s the sense i get from him – the whole leaving Christianity and clinging to Christ and Christ only. He said something like “if it’s not in the bible, then i don’t want to hear it” in one of his interviews.
and as much as i get where both of them – and you – are coming from, i don’t know if it’s possible to totally disassociate yourself from the non-Jesus-following Christians. because they are louder and they are everywhere and they keep dragging Jesus’ name through the mud and i don’t know if changing my “label” from Christian to Jesus-follower means anything because the world, those who are not in the know, don’t know the difference.
hey T
yeah changing the label might just be peace of mind
i emailed John and we’re going to meet up for some kind of caffeine beverage when i am up in durban next week so that is super cool
i like the if it’s not in the Bible, then i don’t want to hear it idea altho it usually is something that is in the Bible kinda but i translated it this way which is a slightly harder one to avoid
i think for me Jesus-follower is a reminder, like enGAGE – or a more apt description of who i am or am trying to be…
much love
b
I think the hardest part of being a Jesus follower/whatever you want to call it, is loving His Bride. And I totally get how the Bride here on earth can really hurt us and make a mess of things, but I’m equally convinced that abandoning the One who Christ died for isn’t really an option either. Jesus said that His Bride will be presented perfect and without blemish, but until that happens, we’ve got to love Her the way she is. I don’t agree with loads of what’s happening in popular Christianity, but refusing to talk back to her isn’t helping either.
i agree with you amanda and i think that’s largely what we are saying – while i agree we need to love her as she is i think we need to add to that that we love her so much that we refuse to let her remain the way she is in all the areas where she is broken and needs fixing – it is our responsibility as Jesus followers to help make the bride look as beautiful as possible for the wedding day knowing that it is inly really that day that will bring her to perfection…
[…] The real deal may contain traces of John Ellis and Anne Rice (Irresistibly Fish – Brett Anderson – @brettfisha) […]
[…] discussion was preempted by Anne Rice’s facebook statuses and all the things written about John Ellis on the internet […]
Hey Brett
Renaming oneself is just a temporary solution. It’s only a matter of time before “Jesus Followers” reveal imperfections. While I get it’s purpose, it just smacks of elitism and sounds a lot like leading from the top, instead of from the bottom.
John Ellis, like Hansie Cronje had always been hugely inspiring to me personally. I’ve always loved his ability to explore his feelings poetically. I’m always glad that John is thinking, reasoning and challenging.
But I’m just confused. So many things just don’t add up. Brett, when you’re done with coffee with John, I’m hoping that the following impressions will be obliterated by fact. For now, these are the crazy thoughts that rage around my head:
– sensationalism and possible indulgent obfuscation: i get it we’re not supposed to use our faith to sell our music, but angry disassociation and half-baked, smattered politics are not useful.
– glacial pace responses: if the newspaper article was that wrong, then why did it take a week for John to respond and why did he just stand back and why does he still not take the time to share how he’s really feeling. Logic tells me this is because he’s basking in it’s glory.
– condescending smirking at others: his last blog post just seems full of judgement, laughing at those who his music has inspired, encouraged and led, those who have supported over the years. those who pray for him. Surely we are still all imperfect and he hasn’t evolved to an enlightened state. He talks about debate, but there’s nothing coming from his end – just a smug labeling and silence.
– entrepreneurial coincidence: it seems to inextricably linked – the launching of your new album, coupled with the fact that the only news spewing from the brand’s Twitter and Facebook feeds is “buy the new album”, all seems a grand leveraged orchestration of brand awareness.
I long to hear John speak from his heart, so that fact would eclipse speculation and confusion. I long to hear of his passion, not his hate; of his vision, not his disillusionment. I see an amazing man, driven home out of his glaring passion for our nation and his longing to be a part of the transformation.
Right now, I see Jonah. Silent. And that makes me sad.
Just in response to some of what has been mentioned, here’s something from Philip Yancey’s book “Church: Why Bother?”
“The composer Igor Stravinsky once wrote a new piece that contained a difficult violin passage. After several weeks of rehearsal the solo violinist came to Stravinsky and said that he could not play it. He had given it his best effort but found the passage too difficult, even unplayable. Stravinsky replied, ‘I understand that. What I am after is the sound of someone TRYING to play it.’ Perhaps something similar is what God had in mind with the church.”
Anyway, simple as it may be, it obviously doesn’t do justice to all the aspects of the topic, but I think it makes a decent point about it.
Hi Brett.
Where is the follow up article on your get together with John Ellis?
This post seems incomplete without it.
hey wade
follow up to coffee with john of e was this http://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/coffees-with-jon-of-ellis which may be a little frustrating cos i don’t say a lot cos i didn’t feel it was fair on him to broadcast in the entirety what was really a new friendship and hanging out time – suffice it to say i think he’s not in the worst place possible and that him and God still hang out and he loves Jesus and so on – there was an interview with him in latest Vision mag which doesn’t answer all the questions but will possibly give some more indication than the tonite one…
Thanks Brett.
I appreciate the predicament you have with regard to sharing from a personal conversation.
The reason i care is because i have felt that Trees’ work has helped me in my walk.
From what i have read and from a TV interview i saw,you may appreciate that many would be confused that a person who seemed and prouced work that seems “annointed”, would become so disillutioned with so many of Christs bride.I mean,the Bible teaches we should expect to be disappointment by fellow believers.And we all have been! For every person that may have left John feeling disillusioned there are dozens that are touched still, by the gifts God has given him, and appreciate it hugely.
Anyway,it is good to know he still loves the Lord and my prayer is that God will use him in the future for His purpose.
I feel if his current state and the lessons he has learned are to benefit us as Christians,you should approach with the idea of a Q and A, with questions from people that he has influenced through his ministry.I’m sure many would like to find out where we are going wrong,in his opinion,and what to do to fix it. As a person with mass appeal he may have a shot at changing things for the better.
God bless.
[…] who i blogged about possibly two years ago [and more specifically, 'is John Ellis a christian?'], here and also here… and matt redman and more specifically the words to his song ‘never once […]