so i am busy writing a book at the moment and am looking for quotes from people both inside and outside of the church just giving a quick sound byte summary of their opinion of church – so a sentence like “to me church is…” or “my experience of church has been…” or “i think church…” but with other words with the three dots are…
the book is called ‘i kissed hating (the church) goodbye’ and is aimed at christians who have become frustrated with church and those who have left as well as those who still belong to church to hopefully remind them what God’s intention was with it – i would really appreciate it if any of you (especially some of the regular contributors such as morne, suzette, maryna…) could take a moment and think about it and then email your quote to me at brettfish@hotmail.com with a description of who you are in terms of what will go next to the quote – such as brett, pastor and improviser or claudette, atheist computer programmer, phil, single mom…
i would be most appreciative-like. thank you for your time.
Okay here is my reason and lots share it so don’t delete it. If you get answer to it maybe you will get more people to church. Christians mostly get it wrong as you even said. So in the past it was Christians who wrote the bible. So how do we know they didn’t get it wrong? Big stumbling block for most. Also we must choose to believe it, okay I do believe it. Now why do women speak in church? Why do men stay home and cook while women off to work? It’s not what the bible says we must live. So also there is no boyfriend and girlfriend. If you going out and holding hands and kissing then you married already. A marriage with a priest cost money and you must buy jewels so it’s all moneymaking racket. Common law wife is when you together fir some time. So church has deleted my comments like you have here. All priests thrive on the glory of bring at the center of attention with youths. Men must be men and work to earn respect. Show me a farmer who is a priest and he will be a good man. Not a college kid priest from middle class. Also if you mention beer my post is deleted as if beer is a dev drink. They drank it up in the bible also. So ya please keep this post here then it will be my last to you. Don’t delete it please thanks. Put it in your book
Brits, i deleted all your and clive’s posts because you were spamming my blog, not because you mentioned beer (altho i doubt you’ll find that in the bible, wine definitely but no mention of beer i don’t think – drinking is fine, but getting drunk is not) or disagreed with me… you just kept on going on and on in circles not responding to anything i said and just making accusations which were often unfounded (stuff you said about the fest when you weren’t even there) – i want these blogs to stimulate and challenge people to think and so part of the deletion was cos you guys were just filling up the space with nonsensical ramblings which puts other people off commenting. a lot of the stuff you are saying “the Bible says” it doesn’t actually say or you are quoting stuff out of context which doesn’t give it the meaning the author intended and so you are just saying what you think and trying to use the bible to back it up while at the same time questioning whether the bible is authentic, thus nullifying your own argument from your point of view.
just because there is some christians-getting-it-wrong in the church doesn’t mean church is wrong or a bad idea – church (when it happens right) is an incredible idea – did you see with the xenophobic attacks a few years ago how it was mostly churches opening their doors and letting people come in and live there and feeding them and looking after them – go look at history and see how it has been the church largely responsible for healthcare and schooling and medicine and a bunch of other world-shaping resources and pioneers…
But it your other post you said that if you are closed minded type Christian then you would have deleted my posts. So you say you closed minded. Beer is not in the bible so it must be devil drink.
I need about 20 beers to get drunk, but maybe a glass or two of holy wine gets you drunk. But wine is also abused so why is it better than beer? It is easier to get drunk on wine as it is more stronger than beer.
see brits, there you go again, you said if i posted the one you wouldn’t post any more and no you have posted two more of your random warblings about beer – i didn’t say it’s wrong to drink beer, i just refuted you when you said that beer drinking is written about in the bible – getting drunk on either is wrong…
i said if i was a close-minded christian i would not have even allowed your posts to be posted – i did – but when you continued to spam and write nonsense then i removed them as i probly will remove these ones – you don’t listen to or respond to my arguments, you just go on and on about your own stuff and it is not relevant to the posts – i am wanting to use my blog to engage with people and you don’t seem to engage much, just rant, so this probly will be the last one – you are welcome to start your own blog and write all your anti-my-blog postings there – i just don’t feel you’re quite getting the point of what this is abot and it is starting to feel like a waste of my time.
You must admit my posts are good though and you delete it. Maybe you a powermonger and only want the stage centre for yourself. So you kick vibey singers off the stage to make boring speeches and delete peoples posts who don’t agree with you. So now you will probably delete this too as you not man enough to argue Christian issues in public. Just censor so you have the centre stage. But people see throu it.
I will post only in this section from now as it is important that you don’t get a big ego
Okay for your book, it would be cool to go through these issues and offer some background or counter argument for these. I’ve been in and out of mainstream Churches for yearr and have no feeling for or
against, but I think these are some of the main points I have run into over the last 30 years.
1. Roughly 2000 years ago, shortly after Jesus died, the seeds of Christianity began. Jesus had many followers – more than 12 – who left and began telling the story of his life. The most memorable of these
is Paul (not really a follower until after Jesus died…) who was a Jew and very enthusiastic about converting people to his version of this new religion. Except, Paul’s version was less Jewish and was at
conflict with the actual disciples and brother of Jesus – guys like Peter and James (and likely Mary M.) who were also spreading their version of what the Jesus message was. Many of these early Evangelists
couldn’t read or write, so other people wrote their words down. Some wrote letters to their converts and signed the name of the apostle/follower. In any event, things got written down about the life of
Jesus. NOW, if we stop there – probably around year C.E.40 – we would have the original text written by the followers or people close to the followers.
The problem arises when you think about how these early churches/converts made copies of these texts. They had scribes who would re-write each book or letter word for word onto a new copy which would be sent
out to other followers. Since most Christians couldn’t read or write during these times, they relied on having these texts read to them by those who could. If you enter in the fact that over the first 100
years after Jesus died each new group of followers had different ideas about the life of Jesus (divine or not? God or man? Both God and man? Women rights? Treatment of Jews? etc. etc.) it is not hard to
understand that each group’s scribes might alter the text slightly to their advantage or doctrine. Even if they didn’t intentionally alter the text, they did accidentally by missing lines while copying,
using incorrect but similar words, and other typos. Jet ahead a couple more hundred years and 100s of copies later and you have some pieces of the Bible that we know. What I am saying is that we have NO
evidence of any of the original writings from the original “inspired” writers. We only have scraps and pieces from a couple hundred years later and in some cases many hundred years later.
This would imply that anything that was inspired by God and written by man is lost. For many this begs the question of whether it was inspired in the first place. The argument goes, If God had inspired man
to write down his words, wouldn’t he ensure that we kept a copy of those exact words through the ages? There are little children dying everyday from starvation, so why would a book’s integrity be favored and
divinely protected whereas a child is not? So quite a pertinent question and something that maybe your book could address.
The Bible was being copied and carried about even during the Spanish Inquisiton and the Crusades. So the same guys who were murdering thousands and copying the Bible were inspired?
Even today, we see many different versions of the Bible, and we have printing presses and computers that can copy exactly. Each Bible is slightly different as each word has a different meaning. Extrapolate
this 500 years into the future and it may be radically or completely different.
Then, there’s the whole issue of the Dead Sea Scrolls and what those contain. And, who knows, there may be other “books” located in the future that one group or another don’t want included. So it is a
man-made or maybe inspired – but who knows. So are we a book follower or do we follow our hearts? I tend to go with the latter… Are we a biblian or a Christian? Can the fullness of God’s being be reduced
to words in a book? But if we’re a Christian, then we must also at least believe in the Gospels then right? Or do we just believe there is a God or divine being and thats it. DIfficult questions that I’m
sure you’ve already pondered but if you could give some of your views in a book then it would achieve a wider audience. But to debate anything as a Christian which is what this is all about then we should
assume the Bible to be correct. But its an assumption at best. This leads us to the next few points.
2. Next comes the widely held view (by both Christians and others) that we can do what we like here on earth. In Genesis 1, God says that he intends for humans to have dominion over the earth. We are the
custodians and must look after it. The majority of Christians have interpreted that to mean that nature is something for people to use or explot, not necessarily protect. Christianity has traditionally
valued spiritual things over material things. They therfore regard anything including nature, living and non-living to be exploitable. Among certain denominations with an apocalyptic world view, the idea of
protecting nature is not important because of the belief that the world will soon end. So what this comes down to is Christians have been moving had-in-hand with the industrialization of the world. Speak to
most Christians about such issues as environmentalism, animal abuse, deforestation or pollution and verses are quoted ad-nauseum to support their veiwpoints. It doesn’t matter to them that there is a growing
modern movement of people who are inspired by God to defend his creation. Bhuddists are the only ones who have gotten this right so far. They sweep up insects, wear only robes, eat one vegetarian meal a day
and live very much like Christ with little to no materialism. So why should I become a Christian or a Biblian when I can actually live like a Bhuddist and in-fact live more as Christ did? I can believe that
Christ is the way, follow his teachings and live like a Bhuddist. Then we hear the common saying, “But the Bible says……”, and the arguments start about semantics, translations, verses being taken out of
context and it all becomes about a book and words rather than a feeling. With the earth the way it is today, it makes sense to live a clean lifestyle, such as you are doing with your fast (which to some is a
normal way of life). It would free up more land for crops (as opposed to hungry cattle) and reduce starvation. There is terrible cruelty in the meat industry – supported by the majority of Christians who
believe animals to be without spirits. The Native tribes such Bushmen ate meat, but they were guiuided by God. They had (have) tremendous respect for their land and the beings which inhabit it. Are they less
holy that a man who calls himself a Christian but trashes the earth and disrepects other beings? God doesn’t want animals to become exctinct hence the story of Noah’s ark. 10 billion food animals are brutally tortured & killed each year in the US. Christians Thank God for this before they eat. Christians seem to be so INDIFFERENT to the suffering of God’s animals that are used for food, but they treat their pets like spoiled children. Watch this video and tell me if God would approve of this happening to his creatures? http://www.mercyforanimals.org/pigs Please watch: really want to know what you think of this video! We should help humans, but as Ghandi said, how we treat animals is a reflection of our culture. When I see Church braais I think they’re hypocrites. This doesn’t stop me from trying to be like Jesus, but it does stop me from going to that Church (which includes most unfortunately).
3. Another issue is tithing: We’ve all seen the pastor driving fancy sports cars and they always seem to be on holiday enjoying lots of spare time. This is because tithing offers them unlimited income while
the rest of the congregation has to slave away. Now lets look at what the Bible (as we’re using the Bible now if we need to argue Christian matters) says 3.1 Abraham never tithed on his own personal property
or livestock. 3.2. Jacob wouldn’t tithe until God blessed him first. 3.3. Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today. 3.4. Only food products from the land were tithable.
3.5. Money was never a tithable commodity. 3.6. Christian converts were never asked to tithe anything to the Church. 3.6. Tithing in the Church first appears centuries after completion of the Bible. Now if
we look into our hearts it tells us that we can tithe if we wish to, however we should not feel quilty if we don’t. Also, we should give freely with food and clothes. If the Church is helping the poor and
using most of the money (or better yet, food and time) for that, then so be it – tithe to them, but only then. The whole tithing thing is a real issue and it turns people off the Church.
4. Church heirarchy is a real problem. It glorifies priests and pastors and leaders and introduces a power struggle in the Church. All are equal before God, so why the heirarchy in the Church? Why are some
more popular than others? The popular ones speak the most and most people come to hear them. Any kind of popularity leads to power and power corrupts. Powermongering leads to cliques. Church cliques are a sad reality for many Churches. Pastors enjoy the publicity. Priests abuse their power and some molest. Cliques, for the most part, appear to validate the reasoning of some who say they are not Christian because of so many hypocrites in the Church. Having personally experienced the effects of church cliques, I can testify to their malignancy. This popuilarity thing is especially true in youth groups. It does also occur in older groups as well but its more about the reverend or authority than about popularity. Both introduce separation from the true message.
Then we have some other points that may or may not be related to the Bible.
5. The earth being only 6000 years old according to many fundamentalist Christians… we all know that one. But they discoverd dinosaur fossils and we have carbon dating. It stems from a too rigid following of the Bible or Biblians. All the animals fitting into the ark.. and other things in the Bible which maybe shouldn’t be taken too literally? The Bible also speaks of the earth having corners.. there are many examples, so should it be taken so literally?
6. Homosexuals? It is forbidden in the Bible. Yes we should love them, but is it right? Is it okay to do the things they do? We should also not judge them, but Christians do judge all the time – they don’t let them into most Churches. Christians are intolerant of other religions, up until recently even race. If someone doesn’t believe in a Christian then they get angry and stop arguing with you – accuse you of going round in circles even though they themselves are arguing without logic and based on a belief. How much of homosecuality is based on hormones or physiological processes outside of the control of the person?
7. Christian History – genocides, Inquisitions, wars. No other religion has been as violent or aggressive. Maybe its the guilt in the Bible that makes people go like this. Jesus didn’t teach to go off to wars. So it comes down to the Bible and the Christian, Jesus follower of Bible Scholar. So you’re either a Christian (of which there was no mention in the Bible), or you’re a Jesus follower doing good or neither or something else. Christians sin, Christians do bad things so who wants to be a Christian.
8. Is your book going to make money? If so, what are you going to do with the money? Help the poor? How much will you use? What percentage? How is it different from others using Christianity for commercial gain?
So these are some points that you should put in your book or at least try to address. I know its complicated and not completely unique to Christians, but when Christians cut themselves off with their high and mighty attitude and exclude others, then others exclude them also. Good luck with the book – better you than me.
One more thing: To do with the Bible. Whoever has more knowledge of the verses and the quotations in the Bible is usually at an advantage when arguing Bible matters. But that only applies to Bible matters. Only someone with lots of free time on his/her hands can learn the Bible by heart. It does not make one more Christian than another. It should not make any difference at all.
So am a Jesus follower, but to follow Jesus properly we must see where the non-followers are going and like a shepherd we must get them back on track. Also we may be on the wrong path ourselves in following Jesus? Lots of difficult questions with answers. Should keep you busy for some time with your book.
You can argue with me about a lot of things here (and Im sure you will) but that this movie has a great deal of factual errors is not up for debate, as I said most of these claims were debunked 100 years ago. I am very worried about the future of this truth movement of which I am proudly a part of, I know that a division on dogmatic grounds is coming, and that all the great work we have done exposing and fighting this New World Order will be undone, by design. Be careful the ones proving the most stuff are often the ones to watch out for, they do this because they know that certain truths are coming out they know that they cant stop the awakening thats coming. so they try to temper it by supplying us with the best realinformation through their agents and having them only lie about key elements, It is very insidious and very evil. We must be alert and challenge EVERYTHING even if you wanted to hear everything thismovie had to say it does not make it true.
One more thing, As this movie suggest, I too believe we are at the end of an age. An astronomical age and a spiritual age, the precession of the equinoxes is a real thing,
They have tried to tell you that this impending change is a non-christian Idea, This IS the Idea! It is clearly described in the bible we will indeed change, as will this world, and why it must do so. but they are keeping you from seeing the origin of the warning! The bible has been 100% accurate in its writing history in advance, this is how has validated itself. Challenge this claim It is your duty, All the multidimensional beings around us know this too, they are not always to be trusted we do NOT know their motives.
Not saying yes or no to the Bible. I do believe some of it (gospels), but not all of it and not only it.
Hey why are you deleting my post. I am a first timer here so its true that you only let through some people’s posts. Also only let some people sing at the concert.
oh sorry, its still there. I thought it was deleted. I personally would like answers to all these questions. I think you are the man to answer but in a book. I’ll buy it if it has the answers.
Hey man have you calmed down yet? Wanna get a beer at dros?
Brits,
Brett has been incredibly patient with you. He has responded to your accusatory and provocative posts with calmness, respect and seriousness – paying them far more due and time and energy than they deserve. You, on the other hand, have responded with personal insults, with wild accusations about things you know nothing about, with bad interpretations of scripture and a general lack of logic. He has responded to your ideas. You have ignored his and carried on your own single track of thought. Anyone else would have kicked you off their blog long ago. I have utmost respect for the way he has handled you – giving space for you to share your views (as frustrating as they are to the rest of us) and even engaging with you. But you have added nothing meaningful to the interactions.
Freedom of speech? Yes, absolutely. But go and have it on someone elses blog or start your own. Stop making personal insults, stop speaking about things you know nothing about, and stop being annoying. Underlying all your blogs is an intense anger. I don’t know who in the church or what christian made you so angry but Brett and others on this blog have tried to reach out and show you a different kind of christian. You have refused to acknowledge them and have kept on holding on to your grudge.
If you do have any reasonableness, you will know that enough is enough and you need to go play somewhere else with someone else. Because we are done.
Brits, you must have a boep with all that beer my man. Maybe meet me at gym.
Brits I think there is a problem with the blog. My posts also looked like they went missing and then re-appeared. Doubt he’d just delete it as it pertains to issues of why people dont dig church man.
farrel, thankx for taking the time to write – firstly, when someone new writes a comment it goes into my hotmail for approval – i have been out most of the afternoon and so haven’t deleted any of your quotes – secondly in my blog i clearly asked for a two to three line “church is…” not a whole thesis and so i would normally not put your comments through for the reason that they are not answering the question i asked – if there is someone who wants to put a quote they have to wade and page down thru so much stuff to get there it blocks up the process of what i am trying to do – with brits it was simply cos he posted and posted and posted and most of it was angry rantings and a lot of it didn’t make sense or relate to anything i was talking about
you post the zeitgeist link and then tell me to ignore the fact that it contains a whole lot of well known errors – why would i purposefully watch something that is so long (started watching the first one once, got really bored really quickly and have heard in detail just how error-filled it is and also of the character of the person who put it together – go research that) if the person giving it to me has said it is not true? sorry, but i just have better things to do
your list of stuff about church has some very valid points and questions and i will try read thru it in greater depth sometime – i’m not sure how much i will respond to them because again it is not on the topic of this blog and i don’t have the time and inclination at the moment to get arguing that stuff… maybe some day…
i appreciate comments and feedback and am very open to someone disagreeing with me and i generally ponder the stuff for a while and then decide what i think of the argument and test it against scripture and all of that – but it’s when people (like brits/clive) are spamming my blog with angry speech and going around in circles that i am not that inclined to continue with it…
thankx again dude
Ok sorry man. Just move the thesis then to a more relevant section besides the book quoting section. I put up the link for Zietgeist as its something people use against the Church. They do make some valid points as well. So having a good look form their side is a way to counter it. I think that thesis post is the only one I really have to make. When you have time, it would be great to hear your comments and Valerie’s as well. But only when you have time as its a lot to think about, but most of the issues I’ve encountered through the years. Maybe put it in a separate section as I say where others can comment as well. Dont really have a quote – Maybe the Biblians vs Christians or Jesus followers – which are we? That one.
no worries dude, thankx for understanding – just been frustrating with some of the people who comment here and just miss the point completely and go off on unrelated rants and then start name-calling when i don’t want it cluttering up my blog space – i am quite a patient dude and really try my best to give everyone a chance to speak – will maybe get round to watching it fully at some time – does make sense to know better what people are looking at and understand the questions to be able to answer them better.
God bless you as you bless others
love b
Cool man. Its kind of like Jesus with that dude Barrabus who was in the tree. We must go to the crazy people and I guess mix with them or at least try to understand them. Kind of like a Shepherd who has lost sheep, we must go into the thorn bushes to get them out. Maybe we also learn from the sheep and find new sources of water or see a new path. Maybe the sheep becomes the shepherd at times. But I’ll leave the parables up to Jesus. Anyway good luck with your book.
i think you mean Zachaeus the tax collector in the tree (barrabas was the guy freed when Jesus was crucified) but yes, like that…
Zacchaeus i mean
Your wife is hardcore chick and I see why you worry so much about doing dishes. My chick is also like that so beer is the answer and to go watch the rugby with the boys, not much into cricket thou but go if the guys all go. What do you think of the da vino code? Maybe Jesus was married? If it is true it would be good to have a versus or so of how to handle the women. Brett where you at? Come to dros later I’ll be there for a few beers but with the woman so bring your chick.
At the pub we sometimes speak about the bible and Jesus and what have you is like a church hey. Pub church is what I should begin and get people to come discuss important issues. Women can also join in but maybe they have a womans version. When you and Val argue you must then write these articles on how to love better. Women can be sensitive and break glasses and then you would be ready to write articles on how to love her better. I try to avoid the glasses or cups being thrown and head to the pub.
Hey Brett, I thought of your book when I came across a book with a similar theme, by Kevin DeYoung and Ted Kluck, called “Why We Love the Church: In Praise of Institutions and Organized Religion” (Chicago: Moody Press, 2009). I haven’t read it, but thought I’d pass it along fyi.
My quote would be… “I think church is one of those things that, like marriage, or raising children, takes a lot of work but is totally worth it!” Tamela, Church Administrator
I think it’s great you’re doing this, keep it up mate!
Hi Brett – am re-reading the book – you sent it to me way back when and I think because you were moving to USofA I did not comment at the time – sorry. Actually I find myself more in ‘editor’-mode noticing odd word combinations more than content per se. [eg somewhere this am I read “be being”] You do not seem to be responding to e-mails to your hotmail addy so I am trying this line of comms.
Hey Bernhard – brettfish@hotmail.com is the one…