let’s face it – Christians are not among the most loved and respected people when it comes to those outside of the church and i have often wondered why this is and so i started thinking about some of the core basics of this religion and suddenly it makes a lot of sense. when you look at what Christians intrinsically fundamentally believe (i’m not talking how some of them act or those who claim to be Christians but are living contrary to what being a Christian is meant to be but those who are actively living out what the bible teaches) then it becomes pretty obvious why we are despised and hated and regarded with suspicion
so let me take a couple of notes – purely by looking at the basics of what Christianity is about or meant to be about – to show why it is valid to hate Christianity…
part IV – It is all about others (or meant to be)
‘Then He (Jesus) said to them all: “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet forfeit his very self?”’ [Luke 9.23-25]
‘One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.”’ [Matthew 22. 36-40]
‘You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.’ [Matthew 5.43-45a]
‘The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” [Matthew 23.11-12]
‘Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.’ [Matthew 13.14-15]
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” [Matthew 13.34-35]
‘Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honour one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervour, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.’ [Romans 12.9-16]
and so on…
the most important commandment for a Christ-follower is to love God and love people (as he loves himself)
and then Jesus’ call to follow is essentially a call to die – to yourself, your pride, the it’s-all-about-me’ness that we grow up surrounded by and immersed in – and to follow Him and His example of being a servant to people who didn’t come close to deserving it
so as a Christian i am commanded to live a life predominantly about others – seeking their good above my own – meeting their needs… no wonder they hate us if that’s all we’re about.
for a last further different other ‘reason to hate Christianity’ click here.
part for?
as in the part where we are for other people…
Perhaps one of the reasons Christians are not “the most loved and respected people” is you’re simply carrying out commands. In other words, you have to be ordered to do good and not evil, like robots. You don’t stop and think if the orders are appropriate; that’s not your job. Your task is to merely carry them out. And there are lots of orders, some of them quite harmful to others. But hey, that’s not your problem. A command’s a command, right?
nah, i don’t think that’s it. following God’s commands comes as a natural response to understanding/grasping even just a smidgeon of the love He has for us and the sacrifice Jesus went through for us – as the verse goes ‘Christs love compells me’ and it’s not the order compel so much as in ‘you must do this’ as much as it is ‘i can’t not do it’ – His love is so great it motivates me to love and forgive and so on… i think God gave us brains for a reason
the point of this series is that actually if you look at the basics of what Christians are meant to believe (love, forgiveness, looking after those in need, uplifting others) most people will have no problem with it – the problem comes in when christians are not that – when we are disobedient and become me-focused or money focused or hypocritical or whatever and that is where those outside look in and go ‘wo i dont want anything to do with that’ – what i am trying to break down here is a misconception of what Christ-following is all about – it is a lifestyle of love and grace and forgiveness and reaching out which is a response to the love of God, not just blindly following commands…
altho i will agree with you that part of the problem happens when too many christians just do follow the commands of the man in front as opposed to checking whether or not it really is what God is saying/wanting and that’s often where problems begin…
I’m sure from within Christianity it appears following God’s commands “comes as a natural response”, but since your post was concerned about outsider perceptions of Christians, I offered why outsiders perceive them in a dismal light.
Christians have always debated what the essence of Christianity is, and given the ever-growing number of sects, it’s obvious the disagreements are only widening, not narrowing. And they all point to the Bible as guiding their beliefs and actions. What YOU define Christianity to be is not necessarily how other Christians define it. Just visit the webpage of the Westboro Baptist Church, for example, and you’ll find plenty of Bible verses to support their view of Christianity.
Until the Christian god comes down and clarifies in person what he wants his followers to do and say, you’re going to continue to get this messy confusion to the detriment of the religion as a whole. Clearly, the Bible has failed as a guide.
Robert, i hear you and definitely you have a good point altho i would still beg to differ strongly – i do know about Westboro Baptist and altho they may have plenty of verses ‘supporting’ what they do and who they are, there is no way you can hold onto a contextual reading of even just the story of Jesus (but the whole Bible as a whole) and back up their stance – it is out of context and completely against who God is and His compassion and love and hunger for everyone to be reconciled to Him – the name of the website itself shows itself not to be true – God hates no one – He hates sin and so people with sin in them that has not been dealt with by what Jesus did on the cross will bear His wrath, but He doesn’t hate them – He desires that all should be saved
i believe the Christian God did come down in the person of Jesus Christ and clarified what He wants His followers to do in person – love God, love people, forgive anyone who wrongs you, look after the poor and hungry and needy and alone etc – it does sadly get lost a lot in translation hence this series but you have to take Scripture as a whole and then the message (from Old Testament to New) is clear – God loves and wants to reconcile and the choice is ours how we will respond.
You really do make some good and sadly valid points in terms of how we as christians have messed it up – but don’t just Christianity on christians – look at Jesus and make your decision there.
its quite sad the way christianity is being perceived as a box crayons. you look at the packaging (baptist/catholic/…) and you know exactly what colour crayons you are going to find inside. or at least that is what those that see themselves as ball point pens think. ‘aargh, those bloody crayons are drawing the same brown cross and red blood again and spewing black, red and yellow hell to those who do not draw a white line when their crayon is called to action.’
well, here’s some good news and reality: no crayon draws white except the white crayon. if you want to see christianity as a predictable box that adheres to the pre-conceived laws of crayon, then that is what you are going to find inside the church: all the predictable christians that you are looking for.
but if you look outside the normal perception for some special white-crayon-following crayons, you will find them not inside the box but outside teaching others to put down the gun, kill hate with love, love everyone as if your brother, give yourself for others willingly, love people with more love, forgive 490 times over the same mistake, open your house for someone desperate,…
and if you dont understand this concept of “love above all else”, you don’t really know what Jesus is about and christianity is just a concept/construct/box of crayons/writing pad/building/banana peel/whatever.
Robert, i’m guessing you trawled the net to find a reason/s to hate christianity. it seems to me you are trying to convince yourself that christianity is something bad. i hope you stay tuned to this blog to catch a glimpse of the ‘other side’ and you (one day) find that what you are looking for. i’m not criticising your search/beliefs, this is just a personal observation (imho).
thanks brett. enjoying your series.
kleinfrans
Brett,
I would assume that on the issue of you slavery, you would similarly agree that it goes against what Jesus taught. Yet, for nearly 1900 years Christians (among others) abetted and institutionalized this most horrible practice. 1900 years! While I hope your vision of what Christianity is prevails, history proves there is much in the Bible to persistently support great evil. And that is a problem for humanity.
kleinfrans,
I don’t “trawl the net” to find reasons to hate Christianity, if only because I understand there isn’t a single Christianity. What I struggle against is the epistemology which undergirds religions (e.g., tradition, faith, revelation, “holy” scriptures, etc.), which largely immunizes itself against reason and progress.
hey Robert
enjoying the discussion – i would completely agree with you on the slavery issue altho there is teaching in the Bible (like Paul for example) where he teaches into the context of slavery – so not advocating it but realising that it is the reality, this is how you should behave as a Christ-following slave and a Christ-following master… and if you understand history you will know that it was a committed Christ-follower William Wilberforce who was so very involved in heading up the process of slave abolishment, at least in the UK i think it was – and many other Christ-follwers were involved anti slavery, anti-racism, educationj, medicine etc etc i could go on…
i completely disagree with you that there is much in the Bible to persistently support great evil and i am not sure you are hearing me on that because it has been the premise for these notes – people have misread, misunderstood and miscommunicated the bible and all sorts of evil has happened – the stuff of God, the stuff in the bible, is revolutionary stuff like love and forgive and uplift others and bless your enemies and create authentic community and help the downtrodden and so on – it is the evil in man that corrupts the truth in the Bible, not the other way around… greed, pride, selfishness, refusal to change… all of these things contribute – someone generally seeking Truth in the Bible will find it…
after googling epistemology i can now add another word to my vocabulary…thank you (i always imagine people sitting in a room thinking out words for concepts that makes the concept seem wow).
anyway, you are talking about two distinct things here: religion and philosophy. Jesus never taught either of these. he taught a way of life. not laws and rules but a way of life. once again. a way of life. no rules. no laws. only 2 commands: love each other as you love yourself. Love God more than anything (yourself included).
some practical exercises:
if i kill someone: did i love them as much as i love myself ? well of course not.
if lie to my mom: did i love her enough to trust her ? ..e…no. in fact, why am i hiding something from her ?
if i owned a slave in 1820: how did i treat the slave ? like a human being, caring for them and being fair or did i starve and hit them (extreme example) ? if i believe in freedom of slaves and bought a slave just to ‘set them free’ and they die because they have no one to clothe/feed/house them, did i show them love or satisfy my own ‘self rightousness’ ?
if i do not dicipline my son for something he did wrong, am i really loving him ?
If i loved someone, wouldnt i want to help them ?
you might agree that this list can go on until the world implodes or england wins the world cup, but dont you think that if you measured all your actions against love, you would find that that is what Jesus did (and taught)?
yes religion has a whole host of rules but on the other hand you cant have a completely non-rules religion (in the words of Brett, “what if someone wanted to worship cats when our congregation clearly follow Jesus? You’d be making a rule”). so yes, the rules are always going to be there. what you do with them (e.g. we dont murder but what about abortion you ask ? how do i show/act out love there? -> another topic for another day) and how you use them to love others is important. if you want to make a religion out of the ‘philosophy of why cats are cute’, you probably can, and you would have a working philosophy (how cute are cats really?) and a religion (oh mighty cute cat…).
so was Jesus a philosopher? i dont think so but you can surely philosophise about His sayings and the meaning thereof and ultimately interpret the saying in 2309 different ways because of that. Does Jesus want you to seek the truth in his sayings/teachings ? yes and no. i think he wants you to believe that what he said was the truth. no doubts. none. accept it…but mull it over. chew on it. discuss it. uplift one another with it. love one another with it. yes, epistemology undergirds religion(s) but if your religion is based on the truth (love above all else) it starts to diminish as a philosophy as you will always (ultimately) return to the premise.
in essence, you are going to fail and make your own head explode if you try to make a ‘Law book’ out of Jesus’ teachings and if you try to interpret the bible’s stories out of context and apply it out of context to modern day. e.g. reason and progress: progress is relative and belief trumps reason. but would non-progress be a bad thing and the belief in ultimate love worse than reason ?
if you fail to understand the concept of ‘love one another and God with your whole being’, you will fail to understand Jesus and christianity will just be a dinner table philosophy and a few rules on paper. maybe even one involving cats.
Brett,
If you understand history, you’ll know there were even more Christ-followers who were proslavery advocates, such as Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. But the larger point still remains: it took Christians nearly 1900 years to even begin to question whether slavery was unbiblical.
I’m sorry, but the facts of history are simply against you when you deny there’s much in the Bible to support evil. Simply read Martin Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies. Or Augustine’s rationales why “heretics” deserved death. These are among Christianity’s most celebrated theologians whose knowledge of the Bible I would readily wager far surpasses your own.
The simple truth is, your understanding of “true” Christianity is recent and far from universal. So, there are two possibilities: 1) you’re right, and Christians have been wrong for 2,000 years, or 2) your understanding is mistaken. If we grant the extreme unlikelihood of number 1, the implications are troubling to contemplate:
1) God knew his followers would misunderstand the Bible for millennia, with its attendant horrible consequences, but decided to proceed with it anyway.
2) God didn’t know his followers would misunderstand the Bible and therefore made a colossal mistake.
The first implication is the only one truly compatible with traditional Christianity. Naturally, one wonders why, but the Bible has a ready answer: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.” (Isaiah 55:8). In other words, God has his own reasons, and your only option is to accept them.
Yeah, that’s pretty damn messed up.
yeah Robert i still don’t think you’re hearing me and i disagree with your argument, not all your points cos you make some valid ones but your general premise – i am saying that if the Bible is read in context and understood as a whole (not verses quoted out of context as have been used to justify all sorts of evil) it is not evil – i am saying the message of Jesus is one of love and acceptance and unity and freedom and that evil men as well as misguided Christ-followers have used it to justify their evil or misguidance – take the Crusades for example – if you take a step back and look at their motives it seems like they are doing a good thing – they are fighting for good against evil and rooting out moral decay etc etc – but if you take a step further back and examine it in the story and message of the Bible you see the words of Jesus telling His followers to love God and love people and then taking it a step further and telling them to love their enemies and bless those who persecute them and to turn the other cheek and forgive seventy times seven and so on – it’s difficult to love your enemy while you are stretching them on the rack – it is impossible to hold the atrocities of the crusades next to the story of Jesus and say ‘yup these measure up’
Jesus Himself intimates (Matthew 7 and other places) that the majority are going to get it wrong – talks about a wide path and a narrow path and says the majority of people are going to be n the wide path to destruction – later He ssys ‘the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firsm to the end will be saved’ and other references
you quote martin luthor and augustine getting it wrong? cool i can add king david in the Bible (a man described by God as a man after God’s own heart) who committed adultery and murder in the most public of ways and God still calls him a man after His heart in the new testament again… or Peter one of Jesus top three followers who repeatedly got it wrong in word or in action and yet Jesus is not phased by that but invites him to head up His church
we get it wrong – we’re sinful and it’s our nature – and even when we are saved and start following Jesus there still exists the competition between our old nature and who we should now be and because we are selfish and prideful and live in a world which completely feeds both we do give in to it from time to time – sometimes horribly – the church is going to have to answer one day for all the horrendous actions it has taken in the name of God…
i think option 1 is not the worst option in the world – knowing something and being responsible for something are two completely different things – yes God could have created a bunch of robot beings who ‘followed Him’ because they were programmed to but instead He decided to ‘give this free will thing a go’ because if He created beings with choice who then chose Him that would actually mean something…
i would imagine, Robert, that the real question is, what bad experience have you had with a christian(s)?
Brett,
Regardless whether you agree with me that the Bible itself is a source of evil, the fact of the matter is, it has been used that way ever since it was created–and it only continues. Today, for example, it’s cited to justify all sorts of discrimination against gays, and to spead falsehoods about human origins. There are sizable numbers of Christians who fervently believe Jesus is coming back any day now, so there’s no need to worry about the state of the planet.
In the end, your dispute is not with me, but with your fellow Christians, whom you need to convince that your understanding is the correct one. If history is any guide, you won’t be successful. And so the innocent will continue to suffer.
Robert,
I watched a movie last night (book of eli) in which the amazing power of a book of authority (doesnt need to be the bible or even a book – although in the movie it is) can be used for good or evil. depends on who is using/interpreting its power and how it’s preached/used. same can be said for dynamite: use it to dig holes or use it to blow up people. your choice. so, is the dynamite evil or the guy applying it ?
“And so the innocent will continue to suffer.” Good prophesy. you are right. I think its going to get a lot worse than we can imagine. and in the end, the only ones who can stop this is us (me, you, brett, my unborn child, your aunt,…) by changing our attitude and putting our fellow man first and love above all. simple. “do unto others…”, “…love above all…”, “if you dont have something nice to say to someone…”, “give $5 for helping the homeless…”, “…be humble..”, and and and… (Robert: dont limit yourself in your thinking here. for a moment step out of your reality).
but the question remains: do we want to stop the suffering (not can we, but do we WANT to. because we can if we really want to) ? do we reallllyyyy WANT to ? do you really want to stop the suffering Robert? i want to. it starts with us.
so in the end, my dispute is with you, my fellow christians, my fellow Jesus followers, the homeless man, you aunt, brett, … (especially brett because he doesn’t let me win at monopoly 🙂 because every time you do something selfish and to the detriment of others, you are not loving that person/group enough.
Love like Jesus loved. Give up your own selfishness.
that is the message.
your choice
kleinfrens,
I don’t think your analogy between the Bible and something like dynamite quite holds. The difference is that Bible is “instructing” and “communicating” while objects like dynamite do nothing of they kind; they’re merely tools, like a hammer. The Bible instigates action, whereas something like dynamite are acted upon.
Who doesn’t want to end suffering? It’s why I say we need to dispense with so-called holy books like the Bible, as a start. And for the most part, Christians have done precisely that. They follow a new Bible that probably most closely resembles the Jefferson Bible.
I find it very ironic that you suggest we look to Jesus to end suffering, when Jesus preached the most horrific suffering imaginable for those who didn’t swallow his claims. I highly recommend you read the Book of Revelation to understand a side of Jesus you seem shy of acknowledging.
hey robert
let me just say that i appreciate the discussion we’re having – i don’t think that i will change you and i am not intending to in any way but it’s good that we can discuss civilly – went an looked at your blog and you are pretty into the whole atheist thing in a big way and a lot of atheists i have met up with get quite aggressive (as i’m sure do a lot of christians you have come across, sorry) and there is no space to actually discuss and submit ideas and reason and so on…
i think i have problem with your words more than your concept maybe – Bible = source of evil doesn’t gel with me – people have used it as an excuse for all kinds of evil – absolutely, i don’t think anyone can doubt that – but on the other hand people have used it for all kinds of sources of good – surely you have not only come across the bad kind of christian – i would hope that some actual Christ-followers (there is a definite distinction) have come across your path and shown love and care and unity and all that – if not, you’re hanging out with the wrong type cos there are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of the good kind across the world as well
i believe Jesus is coming back someday soon – but also that the disciples thort the same thing and so soon is defined by God’s ‘a thousand years for us are like a minute to Him’ and so we (myself and the beautiful valerie, my wife) recycle and we do no meat thursdays and we try and buy free range and so on – again an honest reading of Scripture gives a holistic outcome – the kingdom of God is about how we live here and where we will live one day but Jesus promised life to the full here and that is what i am gunning at – which involves looking after mankind and the planet as much as possible…
what would you say defines your moral code as a person (you personally, what law do you live by?)
Brett,
Most Christians I personally interact with are decent people. But I don’t think it’s a coincidence most Christians are biblically illiterate as well. It’s the quite sizable numbers that still take it seriously – all of it – who we need to fear and oppose.
The underpinnings of my own moral code are described in the “About…” page of my blog.
settlers, kleinfrans, settlers… monopoly is so 80s!
agree with you in the biblically illiterate…
but i am one of those quite sizeable number who take it seriously, all of it… so you should probably start running… or opposing or something…
if you seek Him, He will come…
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