so one of the things that came out of yesterday’s discussions when we were looking at the christian faith existing in a pluralistic multi-faith society was the need to understand what we mean by church…
one of the problems that the church faces today is that what we see as church is a combination of what church is meant to be about (according to God and the Bible) plus tradition and style and denomination and flavour and emphasis and a whole bunch of stuff that is actually not church has crept (or been invited) in
how do we peel away what we have added to figure out exactly what Jesus intended for His bride? also not to say that all that stuff is necessarily wrong either – there is a lot of tradition/style/emphasis/denomination etc that is good and positive and adds to the experience and journey of church, but the danger is when we hold too tightly to some of that stuff and see it as the thing when it is in fact only the clothes of the thing
another question that came up is ‘do we have a gospel message that we can preach at different churches that is the same message?’ – for example if we take the message of the gospel and preach it at an affluent white church, is that the same message we will preach to a township church in a more povertous situation? and if not, then is that truly the gospel message?
for example, as an affluent western churchgoer you can take the prayer of jabez and read it and pray it and say ‘oh look, God blessed me with everything i want, therefore the prayer is true’ (or more honestly ‘it works’ as with other superstitions) – but then the question is would that same prayer and ‘consequence’ work for a Christ follower in a country where they are being persecuted and even killed for their faith? Not at all. Not in terms of how we have come to understand or interpret “blessing” and “territory enlargement” and so on. Therefore the question is, “is that the gospel at all?” and with the prayer of jabez it is a resounding “No!” – if we were able to take out of context prayers that were between a person and God from the Bible and apply them to our lives as if they were teaching then we would have to hold on to the prayers of Job and Jonah and Amos and Isaiah as well and then suddenly it’s not so much about me being happy and comfortable and having a big pile of stuff and selling all my books and so somehow it doesn’t seem to work…
the kinds of questions that may need to be asked with the manpeeling are some that a lot of people (paid Christian workers such as myself perhaps?) will find difficult to ask because it may mean we have to change some stuff and quite possibly get a lot more uncomfortable – questions like ‘is having a building church?’ and ‘is paying a pastor/worship leader/youth worker church?’ and so on…
also questions that would make the rest of the church start to get nervous such as, ‘is 5% of the people in a weekly gathering doing 100% of the work church?’ and is ‘this group is the evangelists and that group is the missionaries church?’
and so on.
Really enjoying your lausanne reflections… It’s almost like I’m there… Mmmm… Ok, maybe not.
Church is boring, and the bands are cheesy. These bands always think they’re so cool. Its like a showcase for bands that cant make it in the mainstream. There are cliques in the Church, and people put themselves above others and want to be in charge all the time. I cant handle the boring cheesy songs, and seeing people leave the Church and then steal the next day in the workplace. Its annoying all the people praising so and so leader, pastor and whoever. The Bible was written by people not so? I’m tired of people quoting so and so 4:18, whaddawadda 3:16…is it compulsory to study every verse – does it bring you closer to heaven? If so, which translation must I use? If we all worked in the Church, who would be out there earning money to pay these priests?
hey Morne, i think you’re confusing ‘church’ (the living world-transforming dynamic humble other-people-focused) with ‘church meetings’ and even there it sounds like your experience has not been great – the purpose of this blog is to critique church (as opposed to criticise altho when necessary that too) and ask what has God intended and what does it look like? the Bible was inspired by God and written by people and so it is worth taking seriously if you want to call yourself a follower of Jesus – but boring and cheesy? when church becomes all it is meant to be then it is about bringing healing and redemption to society, about breaking down racism and sexisn and other divisions, about caring for those with HIV and other diseases, about caring for the downtrodden, the lonely and the hopeless, about revolution – that is not boring or cheesy – it is incredible and that is what i am wanting to be more a part of
They must then scrap those cheesy bands. Also are people not inspired today? Why not have Brett 5:18 or Morne 2:11? Who said it was inspired, or not just some dude smoking weed? Those same people who said it was inspired, were also part of the inquisition. Why is society worse than ever if the churches are working? Why is the earth such a disaster – kids dying? Terrible things happening. If we all were part of church groups like you, who would grow crops? Who would work? How would we all survive? People have to work, and therefore spend less time in church, so does it make those who are in church more holy?
hotels, plane tickets, sight-seeing, breakfasts, lunches, dinners.. money well spent.
emperor constantine of rome called together a gathering of a representative body of the church and they met at the first council of nicaea and came up with the canon of law which became what we refer to as the bible which is complete as a unit and cannot be added to – sure God continues to inspire people today but never in a way that is contrary to His word which was a gathering of teachings of Jesus and then widely accepted by the church teachings (of people like Peter and James and Paul) who were recognised by the church as being inspired by God – so we don’t have need for a Brett 5.18 or Morne 2.11 – but the Spirit does still inspire us in terms of being creative with how we live that stuff out.
church is made up of people and thus it will always be flawed and make mistakes and sometimes get it horribly wrong – often the people that make up the church are not Jesus-following but themselves following and so again all sorts of chaos like the crusades and apartheid and so on will happen, not because it is God-led stuff but people-led stuff – but that doesn’t mean that church doesn’t work – it just means it can and has to work better but when people who are genuinely trying to live out Jesus teachings gather together and start doing things then it is incredible to watch and you can see eveidence of this all over the world – a lot of hospitals and schools and breakthrough in medicine and technology and so much more came as a result of the church
“If we all were part of church groups like you, who would grow crops?”
that statement shows you have no idea what you are talking about when you say ‘church groups like me’ cos the idea is for people to be part of society and influencing it from the inside so people who are lawyers and teachers and businesspeople and crop-growers who have a living and active relationship with God and are spreading His message of love and restoration and reconciliation in whatever field they are in – putting others above themselves – when church is functioning propwerly that is what it will look like – not a bunch of religious people hiding in a building but a bunch of active Jesus-lovers affecting all aspects of society
So the Bible is based on men? And we are all followers of a roman emperor’s decision if we believe the Bible? How can a lawyer be a christian if the law itself is not christian, or if they defend rapists or murderers or child molestors? Modern society and christianity do not mix. It is like oil and water. We must go back to living in small villages – like in the days of old for it to work.
no Morne, i don’t think you are hearing what i am saying and if you are not interested in genuine dialogue then i am not too interested in carrying on responding to you – the bible is God inspired – it was a grouping of men brought together by a Christ following emperor who gathered to collectively, led by God, decide what stuff at the time was God inspired and what wasn’t with the understanding that God led that decision and constructed the Bible as we know it today
i have a friend who is a lawyer and he works on litigation dealing with trafficking and social welfare and so he is deeply involved in cases that change society and therefore the world – i think if you are a lawyer who is a Christian then the kinds of decisions you make will be likely to be about whether you defend rapists and murderers or whether you try and make a difference to innocent people (some of who may be people wrongfully accused of being rapists and murderers) and some of that by choosing a path of law that allows you to change unfair laws and help make things better for the community in those kinds of areas
there is definitely a place for Christ-following in modern society – not simply to fit in with it but to be a difference in the midst of it – you spoke earlier of being holy and the word holy means to be set apart and to be different – a Christ-follower is called to be someone who loves those around Him with a crazy hardly-understandable revolutionary love that makes no sense in terms of society but that will change the society in which it operates
one of the biggest problems in the church is when religion takes over – Jesus called us to relationship and a lot of the things you seem to have a problem with are religion focused and not relationship focused – the biggest command is love God with everything and love your neighbour as yourself – look after those in need – when this happens it is incredible
maybe you should take some time and read one of the gospel – matthew, mark, luke or john in the second part of the bible and read about the life of Jesus and then go read acts 2.42-47 which shows the life of the early church which was society transforming – it is inspiring stuff and will maybe erase some of the negative experiences you have had with christians or church when you see what it is really all about
have a good day further.
So we must then support lawyers who defend criminals, child molestors as they are all innocent? What about lawyers who defend criminals who have admitted to the crime? The lawyer then says,”I am just doing my job – I am still a Christian”. Nice excuse. Heard it from Christian lawyers too many times.
The bands at church bore me, and seems like they seek glory for themselves.
Modern society is not of the Bible and the way of Christ. So they cannot go together. We can try to, but very difficult to succeed. The law itself is contrary to the Bible laws. So how do we follow two masters? You shoes may be made in a sweatshop, or the item you buy like a laptop or PC. We must become farmers like the Amish, that is the better way.
Constantine also had an army and waged war. So how do we know that he only put things in the Bible that boosted his own beliefs and power base?
What of other tribes who were wiped out, who believed in dancing naked in the forest as their way of worshipping? Why only one view? Because only the victor writes the history books and also the Bible..