the one thing that stood out for me yesterday from the lausanne footage we watched was the dude doing the ephesians 4 devotional who spoke about how some people can look at a footprint in the sand and know if it was a woman or a man, if it was someone old or young, if that person is carrying a burden or not, if that person has a slouch or walks straight and tall… he then referred to about five different verses in ephesians that spoke about walking and posed this question:
if we take a week and watch how you walk, what would we be able to tell about you?
[similiar to the statement – if you were ever tried in a court of law as a Christ follower, would there be enough evidence to convict you? well, would there? excluding any testimony from you.]
This lusanne sounds like a holiday. They should have used the cash for helping out the destitute.
it’s interesting you say that Morne, as those are the same words Judas used when the woman anointed Jesus feet with perfume [Judas being the disciple who later betrayed Jesus and it turned out he had been helping himself to their money on the side] and so i guess the first question we need to ask before we look at others is how do i spend my money? are you spending yours on the destitute or simply taking this as an opportunity to point the finger at others
secondly the major point of the lausanne congress was to get the church together to network so that it can be more effective and so the long term hope is that the money spent getting people here and running the congress will result in a whole bunch of global ways of being so much better at helping the destitute and so on – one of the big topics they looked at was trafficking of people which is a huge problem in the world and a difficult one to stop but now the various agencies working on it can get together and pool resources and research and be a lot more effective at bringing change which would be money well spent i imagine…
I work, earn money and spend it where I please. I also help destitute.
Why are these conferences always in beautiful fun locations? Luasanne – swiss mountains, historic sites.
Make it in Sudan, Somalia, or Congo, or Soweto..or Botswana
It is a holiday, and a bit of a discussion amongst Christians. Yes, there is good in it, but mostly it is
an expensive holiday.
you have a good point morne but i would imagine the scope of the conference [4200 people from 197 countries] was a big part of it needing to be in a place that could handle it – that being said i know of a team of around ten people from the one country who spent a week in kayamandi (the township in stellenbosch where i lived for a year and a half before i got married) just serving and helping out before the conference and i’m sure there were other things like that which happened and so hopefully the effect of what has happened in this beautiful place (why not meet in a beautiful place if you have the opportunity – as far as i know it sudan is closed to christians and wouldnt be an option) will spread out and ripple throughout the world…
So invite thousands and go all out on a big party in a nice spot. Sounds like fun being a christian, travel, big gatherings in pretty places all paid for.
Hi Morne,
As one of the “Thousands who took part in the big party in a nice spot” (as you put it), firstly, each participant had to pay their own way and yes, in many cases, local churches and friends and family got on board helping out. Secondly, I would DEFINITELY class it as a party! I had so much fun! But probably not the lazing in the sun on the beach sipping martini’s kind that it sounds like you are referring to. Rather we were at the conference centre from 8:30am until 9:30pm every day for 7 days straight in meetings and dialogue sessions and conversations almost non-stop (only stopped for lunch and dinner, during which we continued to meet together, partner, have discussions, strategise and pray). Like Brett said, while on the day off some did go and see the beautiful city of Cape Town, many volunteered their time and energy in local outreach and community upliftment around the city.
Was money spent on the conference? Absolutely! But as Brett has pointed out, I strongly believe that it was strategic investment. The connections and networks and partnerships formed are invaluable especially in targeting and addressing such structural issues as poverty, HIV/AIDS, human trafficking, conflict, and lack of education, and seeing how the Church globally (as a word used to describe all people who follow Christ) can address these.
This said, I feel I have gone above and beyond in “justifying” this conference to you. I strongly encourage these kinds of critiques usually (and am often the first to ask, “But do we really need to spend so much money on church buildings when…”). However, your critique is not very well thought out and does not go much beyond a blanket judgment call, assuming that it was a “big party” paid for, presumably, by naive people. Perhaps I could also say, if I chose (as you did above) “I work, earn money and spend it where I please. I also help destitute.”
So it is really just a party then. How long were the lunch and dinner breaks?
Why is it a “structural issue” and not just an “issue”? How was aids addressed? Money should be spent looking for a cure and putting condoms in all the public places so people use them. As for conflict, most conflict is because of religion, so that is like saying. “fighting for freedom is like f__ing for virginity…”
How much did the conference cost in total? Millions I assume. Many houses could have been built for the homeless.
Most people in Church are very naive, they just give money to their Church, and who knows what the Church spends it on – mostly holidays to nice places; or conferences as you call them to fun locations.
When you have the next party in Ethiopia, then I’ll stat to believe the Church is not just having an excuse for a party.
One quick question: How do you people find time to spend a full week having a party? Don’t you earn a living? I should really consider changing jobs and also party all the time.
i am going to risk engaging you jason altho it doesn’t seem you are actually interested in answers
as for condom distribution being the solution to aids, well that hasn’t really worked all that well has it – the solution to aids is morality – and commitment and covenant – so one partner in marriage for the rest of your life which is the most incredible thing – knowing that my wife has chosen me for ever over everyone else – you can’t beat that. and knowing that she has never slept with another guy ever is also pretty cool, and i’m glad i could offer her the same thing in terms of other girls
a lot of conflict is because of religion but the true Christianity we are holding to is about relationship – people doing things “in the name of religion” is completely different to people living lives transformed by God – which will be evidenced by the things mentioned in the Bible in Matthew 25 – the hungry being fed, the lonely being visited, the naked being clothed, those in prison being cared for and so on – when it becomes religion and me-centered then wars and chaos ensue all the time – so be careful of judging the one thing as the other thing – they are two very different things
i’m interested in what job you do jason? do they never send you to conferences so you can learn how to do your job better or better understand how some aspect of your job works – do they do in-house training so you can become more effective at whatever you do? this is the same thing but for the church – if the week was a success and i think history will show that it was, then it will be evidenced in more effective and wider-reaching processes of the things i mentioned before…
when you talk about people being naive and just giving it to the church and not knowing what the church spends it on, yes u would say that it naive – so rather join a church where the records are open as they should be and where you are actively engaged with whatever things the church spends the money on – for us it would be feeding schemes in vlottenberg (poor farming community where we have relationship) and lifeskills for kayamandi (local township) high pupils and literacy and english classes (also in vlotties) and so on… how do you use your money to help people?
Please don’t tell me I’m not interested in answers, and also don’t assume that only you alone have them! You are lucky people comment on this blog, or are we not allowed argument?
Hey its good you were both virgins, but in this day and age it is quite rare so well done. But marriage usually ends in divorce, and its easy to marry and divorce, maybe just a bit harder to separate than going out with someone where you can just break up. Marriage is a piece of paper made up to enrich priests and control people.
Maybe they must just let aids take its course – its God’s will if people catch it or not – so why interfere? It will help control the population.
Those murderers and rapist in jail should be put to hard labor. Why should we care for them? They must pay their debt to their victims i.e. a lifetime of hard labor. Or firing squad if they refuse- no burden on the state.
I do mechanical engineering – mostly industrial. But we don’t have a conference which we could call a party – we actually work. Its not a social get together of do-gooders sight-seeing. Also we earn our money – we don’t ask the congregation. You church people should also get real jobs, then you will be able to understand the common people better – the people who donate have to work for that cash.
The church elders decide where the cash goes. I wouldn’t have a say at all. But I would of course not donate to them if the money goes on themselves. Why should I? Its a big con. I am not a part of it, so I dont care if people are stupid and throw their money away.
Hey, I use my cash to help. I donate and put cash in the SPCA tin as well as for disabled and NSRI (sea rescue). I don’t donate to the poor who dont wish to work – why should I? I help those poor that want to work.
I agree, why waste time with AIDS, its there for a reason – to stop the population getting out of control. Look at those cruel scum who tortured the baby elephant in that village. Some people should not even be called humans. Let all the cruel scum, murderers and rapists die out – we don’t need them here. Malaria is also there for a reason – because they chop down the rainforest and kill the mosquitos’ natural predators. Did you know that malaria is almost non-existent in the rainforests themseves? Christians will say,”oh poor villagers…” – and that when I hear these words, I run from Christians – or chase them away with a broom.
The Church has had 2000 years to “get it right”, but they are still running around in the dark. You Church people are consumers and rape the earth, using Christianity to propagate their narrow views. I never hear in Church about rainforests being destroyed, or exploitation of other species, or of pollution and how we treat the earth. All I hear is XYZ 2:15 -peopel using the Bible to stand on, put themselves above others, brother this, leader that, pastor that, this young person, that young leader, (what about the older folk?) that talented band, and other vacuous talk. The ones that cling to verses are the ones needing walking sticks the most. Everyone leaves at noon on a Sunday feeling hyped up from mass hysteria, but you’ll get the same effect from a dance party. Why can’t people just be naturally good and kind? Some are good and kind without the Church. Is the “Church” really the Church? Can you call it that with all its hypocrites? Hey but lets have a party!
cool morne, your experience of church is clearly not the same as mine and so i would encourage you to find a few different expressions of church before you condemn the whole thing – one of the most exciting things about the church i am involved in is a group called Vision K where 25 kids are selected from a grade 10 class at the local township school and met with weekly and they have a meal together and then work thru different aspects of life skills so issues such as dating and aids and manners and nutrition and conservation and so on – and then the grade skills so an art/life skills combo with people from stellenbosch university and then the matrics do study skills so creating a cv and applying at university and for bursaries and study techniques and so on – the program has been running for nearly 8 years now and there are two guys in 4th year medicine as a result of it (most of the guys who go thru vision K end up in tertiary education where you have a high school with a sub twenty percent – i think, it is really low – matric exemption rate) and so these kids have been given dreams they didn’t even know they were allowed to dream and turned them into realities – the whole township will change as a result of the life that is given to these and other kids because they see it…
i think my discussion with you is almost at an end because i don’t see you honestly looking for answers but just trying to unburden some chip you have on your shoulder about church and you seem really angry – you say you havent heard church preach on this topic and that topic but it doesn’t sound like you part of a church and so i don’t know how you are able to not hear preaches on topics – altho a lot of what you say is based on truth because broken people make up the church and we get it wrong a lot for sure but as i keep telling you go to the bible and find out what church is meant to be and make a decision based on that
you can’t tell if christianity works of doesn’t work by looking at christians but only by looking at Jesus just like you can’t tell if soccer is good or bad by looking at someone who only plays in their back yard – watch the big guys play in the big matches and you will hopefully get some idea of what soccer can be – so find people who are genuinely living out Christ-following lives (they do exist i promise you) and join them in the mission of saving the world – spiritually, relationally, emotionally, physically and environmentally…
what God calls church is an incredible thing – what we call church sadly often misses the mark, but when it hits, as again it does if you just look around, then it hits well and makes a huge impact… i hope you get exposed to some living Christ followers some day who will help change your bad experience around…
The Bible also says we must go forth and multiply – or doesn’t that apply to us (if not, then what does?). The earth is overcrowded, so we should be telling people to stop having so many kids, especially if they cannot support them.
Hey, you can discuss with me or not, I don’t care either way – just letting you know my views so that maybe you might change the Church and its bad ways from within. Maybe you are, but I don’t know you that well. I do thank you for taking time to answer though.
What also annoys me is the Church in history. Besides the obvious, like the inquisition and crusades, there were other terrible things done. They went into ancient lands and “converted” the people with the sword, smallpox and killed off their forests, animals and most of their tribes and land, leaving them with nothing. This is the cause of most of Africa’s problems, as well as other other lands, like the North American Indians, deforestation in South America. For king and country, for church – convert these savages or kill them off. They were fine before Christians arrived, there weren’t many left after…
Churches need to recognize that they’ve messed up, and go out there and plant trees, fix up the tribes, restore thousand year old primal forests. Give land back to the Indian tribes and other tribes. Stop running around trying to convert everyone. Look at how peaceful most of the Buddhists and Rastas are. – living with the earth and respecting all living creatures. The way the old tribes lived is the true way – in harmony with the earth and nature, respecting each other, the elders and walking barefooot on the earth, wild and free of the self-inflicted will to power of the western Christian ideal.
Besides a couple of monks (Christian or Buddhist or Islamic) living humbly in a monestary or Mosque somewhere, most of organized religion is a farce and used as a tool to further a capitalist and industrial agenda.
Yet look at Christians, praying every Sunday and robbing everyone on a Monday (legally), through less obvious means. Plundering natural habitats, and messing up the whole earth, turning it into a dustbin, making all species go extinct.
Lets see if the Church can change, but I doubt it if the whole thing is based on a book written by men 2000 years ago. Christians must feel it from within – it must not have to come from a book.
see Morne you illustrate a very important point there – reading things out of context – the bible should never be taken as one verse here and there but reading the whole thing and understanding it as one connected story and then you are likely to get a better understanding – the go forth and multiply command was given to adam and eve when the earth was empty of people and then possibly again to noah when it was just the eight of them after the flood – for us to read that in an overcrowded world and see it as teaching is not correct
the same with people who justified the crusades or holy wars or apartheid and other forms of racism – you can find a verse that looks like it backs up those things absolutely, but if you read scripture as a whole as it was intended then it is impossible to justify those sorts of things, and you will even understand why those verses don’t make sense outside of the context they are in
one example is the ‘prayer of jabez’ phenomenon that swept the world (and some ‘christian’ authors) pockets a few years ago – there is a guy called jabez who in the old testament pras to God and asks God to enlarge his territory and God blesses him abundantly and so the idea was that we can pray that prayer today and be blessed – only problem is that was one guys prayer in the old testament and God responding to him – it was a specific request and got a specific answer – it wasnt a teaching saying pray like this and you will be blessed [and even if it was there is a bit that says jabez was the most honourable guy around or something to that effect and we are quite happy to take the blessing without the living with honour bit] and if we could take that prayer that way then we should also have the prayer of Job (woe is the day i was born) and the prayers of Isaiah and some of the other prophets, some of which were very hectic and none of which would sell as books – so once again people claiming to be christian but using Gods word for profit – they will be judged by God for it one day…
yeah dude i hear your frustration – which is why i continue to respond, before it seemed like you weren’t really interested but this last post of yours seemed like a more genuine search for truth – and again i say that it is true for a lot of people calling themselves christian but not following Jesus [which is why i prefer to call myself a Christ-follower than a christian just because christian seems to mean so little today in terms of how generally it is used] – i am actually busy writing a book called ‘i kissed hating (the church) goodbye’ which is aimed at trying to look at what church is supposed to be all about and what God’s original purpose for her is and showing that when we get that it is incredible – if you have a bible or find one online go and read acts 2.42-47 and then the corresponding section in acts 3 where you see a picture of the early church – in their community they basically ended poverty because they made sure that those who had looked after those who didn’t have and if necessary someone would sell his farm (personal cost and need for reliance afterwards) to cover other people in need – in fact even then we see early dodgy christians ananias and saphira who sell a farm and pretend to give all the money away but keep some – altho God strikes them both down dead which i imagine shows His feeling towards christians who pretend to be one thing and are another…
and if you give history a more thorough research i think you will find that along with the messups of crusades and colonialism and a bunch of other negative stuff the church can be linked to or attributed with that in the fields of medicine and education and a bunch of other positive things the church has been instrumental in looking after the poor and needy and “unlovable” [like mother teresa and friends who were definite Jesus followers] – when the church looks as God intended it is an incredible life-giving thing
a local example is when the xenophobia attacks happened in south africa about two years ago – it was largely the churches across the country who got in there and opened their doors to refugees and collected and fed and looked after and so on and i have never been as proud to be associated with church as i was then – pity it took a crisis to get the church involved but still a great thing to witness… and be a part of…