i am completely over the whole rob bell public bashing, public defending, long back-and-forth status comments thing and so i am hoping this will be my last post on the matter, but i think this is a valid point [and the title which i thort of as i came in here to write is pretty relevant as well]
i recently read this comment at the end of another long rob bell – is he a universalist or isn’t he back-and-forth um… let’s be nice and say ‘conversation’ :
“Game set and match, Jonathan. Well put.”
and responded with this:
“see when you start using “i won the tennis match” language it really emphasises the fact that for so many people this rob bell crap [cos let’s be honest] has become a lot less about standing up for God’s Truth and become a lot more about being right… or having the appearance of being right.”
and that is sadly what it feels like it has become for a lot of people – whereas, right or wrong, the bible is very strong about the fact that Rob Bell is our neighbour and our response needs to be that of love, and 1 Corinthians 13 lists a whole bunch of amazing things we can do and achieve but if there is no love, it means nothing, it achieves nothing, it counts for nothing.
and something about us being the clanging bell… a lot of noise, but no point.
yes, if his theology is publically bad it does need to be dealt with (publically i think, the Matthew passage about ‘if your brother sins against you’ doesn’t apply here because it is not a brother sinning against you – note how Jesus responds publically to bad theology a lot) but it does need to be done in love and the end point hope is that he will always be restored…
i’m not sure how much of that is evident in “Farewell Rob Bell” and various other sentiments that have been expressed this last week.
how bout we all just wait til we can read the book now? [excepting for those of you who are running away completely from the book because, um i can’t remember why, but something]
I am really enjoying what your writing on the subject. I am not saying anything about it because I am a bit over it. Just want to say thanks Fishy, you’ve often opened my eyes to things I wouldn’t have otherwise seen, you’ve made me think and added some colour. Thanks a mil
Amen to that Brett. In the end, love wins. Always.
Flip! Christians can be embarresingly lame sometimes, can we just go and cut some philistine foreskins off?… and register to vote already
Love you all:-)
Thanks for the great post!
I’ve always wondered, why do most Christians either lean too far toward un-loving, dogmatism or un-discerning, hyper-grace?
I wish we had more spiritual mentors to show us how to be balanced and how to love people while standing for the Truth.
So that’s why I’m grateful for your post. The Church needs more people standing up for *both* grace and truth.
Why you say Muslims will go to Hell? I’m going to get all my facebook friends to know about this web site.
Where does it say that “muslims will go to hell”? Please dont make claims out of context and based on your own interpretation. Shouldn’t a muslim strive to tell the truth always and not spread rumours? That to me is one of muslim faiths great attributes.
Abu Bakrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Shall I not tell you of the greatest of major sins?” We said, “Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allaah.” He said, “Associating others with Allaah (shirk) and disobedience towards parents.” He was reclining, but then he sat up and said, “And false speech and false witness, and false speech and false witness.” – Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5631; Muslim, 87
Allah al akbar who is the only one who knows who is going to paradise.
shaheed, i would love it if you told all your muslim friends to come and view this site – they are most welcome, as are you – however, encourage them to start at this page – http://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/he-spoke-i-ran-stories-from-a-muslim-part-i – and read the story of my friend Afshin who started out life as a very devout muslim until an encounter that changed his life forever…
In the Holy Quran, Jesus is a Prophet and is recognized by Islam.Do you accept that Mohammed is a prophet? Please clarify. Is not the God we worship the same, just different names to different people? Are you saying Muslims must believe only Jesus? My friends are peaceful there is no other intention but to clarify.
Hey Shaheed, i am enjoying the discussion and hope it is good for you too – did you get a chance to go and read that link i gave cos it is an amazing testimony of a muslim who had an encounter with Jesus and He answers a lot of those questions much better than i can because his background is muslim and he understands the teachings – i understand a little of islam but more of the Bible and what the Bible says is that we can only reach God through Jesus Christ [John 14.6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me.”] so that is Jesus claim that He is exclusive way to God which all of us have to weigh up to test the Truth thereof [He backed it up with His preaching and miracles and the fact that He died and rose again which proved once and for all that He was who He claimed to be] and He came to bring freedom to everyone… who calls on His name…
How can you base your life on some text in a book written by priests?
hey melissa
it sounds retarded when you ask it like that – well unless the priests were an amazing bunch of people who knew stuff i guess
the fact is, i believe the Bible was inspired by God and so altho He used priests to write it [and you may be surprised to find out it was not written simply by priests – Moses and David were shepherds altho David became King, Job was a rich man, Solomon was a King, Peter was an uneducated fisherman, Matthew was a government employed tax colector, Paul who wrote most of the new testament started out as a religious leader trying to convict and kill Jesus followers before he had an encounter with God] i believe and have experienced it to be completely by Him
the heart of the Bible is love God, love people (Matthew 22) and look after those in need (Matthew 25) which are really not two of the worst things in the world – sadly, thru the ages Christians have used the bible out of context to do a lot of horrible things but that doesn’t make the Bible wrong…
How do we know the priest were an amazing bunch, and not just listening to the Popes at the time?
Why would the Bible be inspired? If so, then why do children starve? Surely they’re more important than a book?
If the best argument that the Bible is true is that in the Bible it says that it is true, then I claim that Voldemort exists. I have proof in 7 books! You have only 1!
um i think you are just being silly now… read what i wrote, then if you have honest comment and question i will engage…
children starve not because the bible is not inspired, but because man refuses to live it out sufficiently…
Hi Melissa,
I see your point (but i am glad old Voldemort doesn’t exist !).
but to answer you question:
You must test a book (or statement/saying/anything for that matter) against
1) by who or what is the book inspired (God? Aliens ? J.K. Rowling’s son ?)
2) what is the intent of the book (to inspire ? to tell a story ? to convey a positve message ? to talk of liberation ? to explain the ultimate love ?)
3) can the things stories/people be proven (if its claimed to be the truth) ?
I dont think this is the definitive guide to proving the bible is true but if you test the bible against this, you will see what i mean.
I hope you find the bible as inspiring as i do. It teaches me personally to love people as much as i can. Imagine everybody did that ! can you fathom how life changing that will be ?
so why don’t people do it ? why all the hate ? the suffering ? is it the choice of humans or God that make these decisions ? if you had the power, would you force people to love you or have them choose to love you ? dont you think that love not freely given is not really love at all ? God dont want robots, he wants our love (to quote the Arrows).
No law is perfect (just think of all the court crime dramas you have seen on TV/Films). But the law of love is perfect. I am a human and dont always get it right but the law of love allows me to say i’m sorry and be forgiven. but obviously i am human enough to learn from that mistake(s).
I have a feeling you are someone that has a lot of love in you and likes to express that. I challenge you to take it one step further and love like Jesus did (to quote Brett above “the heart of the Bible is love God, love people (Matthew 22) and look after those in need (Matthew 25) which are really not two of the worst things in the world “)
The Quran was written by one prophet and is more updated and unaltered. Why not include the Bible and Quran into one book?
i would challenge the statement that the Quran is unaltered – check out the history… the two books contradict each other and cannot be made into one book… you have to ascertain which one is Truth and follow that… both definitely contain elements of the Truth (the Quran acknowledges Jesus as prophet for example) but i believe the Bible to be inspired word of God… revealing Jesus who is the actual Word of God…
They are both books and people rarely covert from one to another. There are their own beliefs compounded with a sense of having to follow the family religion. What you’re implying here Brett, is that the Quran is not correct and that the Bible is. In other places in your blog it seems that you are pro Muslims converting to become Christians.
Now you may have your own thoughts on these matters and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Can you place yourself in the position of a devout Muslim? It would be near impossible fir them to convert.
You imply that anyone who does not follow Jesus is destined for Hell, including other faiths. If that is the case, then surely these people had the odds stacked against them from the start, bring born into a Muslim family and country. In these countries it’s much harder to become a Christian than it is here in SA.
Even the Jews do not believe in Jesus. Even less so than the Muslims it seems. They have even more opportunity as there are Christians in countries like Israel.
The main problem I guess is that it is all about what has been passed on and written in books throughout about 2000 years. Less in the case of Islam.
Can we at least agree then that the Christian and Muslim and Jewish God are the same God? Then after that we can debate and look at evidence about Jesus. Maybe this is the best way forward.
go and read this post and the rest of the series and then we can continue this conversation: http://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/he-spoke-i-ran-stories-from-a-muslim-part-i
I agree with Melanie.
Okay so one Muslim converted. Now how is that proof? I can name Christians who have converted to Islam as well…
I would challenge your statement that the Bible is unaltered. Check out the history.
I think people really want to hear your views Brett, as its your blog. You seem a bit evasive and tend to re-direct people to other places. They want to hear your words on this… I think
I do like your posts though for the record, just my perception of what others are wanting.
thankx Marc, i disagree though with your statement that i am evasive – i do get frustrated when people start arguing things that are not linked to the blog post as i am inviting discussion on the latest thought i have had and then people go on their own mission with something completely different – that may be valid but there is a different place for that and it often feels like a particular thread has been highjacked by someone on their own agenda and if you’ve been following for a while you will notice that often the statements are completely ridiculous and just not based on anything – i do welcome challenge and honest real discussion on the things i believe in and am quite happy to lay my cards on the table – when it comes to theological matters i will often direct people to my friend sean who is an incredible apologetist just because i know he will do a much better job than me…
one muslim converting doesn’t prove anything but his story is incredible and it proves that just because someone is born a muslim, doesn’t make it impossible for them to meet up with Jesus and Truth – i believe if you seek God you will find Him, if you are conducting an honest search…
thankx again for the comments.
Brett, Tim Challies has reviewed an advance review copy of the actual book. You can find his review at http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/love-wins-a-review-of-rob-bells-new-book.
How i, too, long to see God’s people speaking the truth in love, our love abounding more and more in knowledge and all discernment.
To keep things fair, you should include these quotes by the man himself so people can see all sides:
“If the gospel isn’t good news for everybody, then it isn’t good news for anybody. And this is because the most powerful things happen when the church surrenders its desire to convert people and convince them to join. It is when the church gives itself away in radical acts of service and compassion, expecting nothing in return, that the way of Jesus is most vividly put on display. To do this, the church must stop thinking about everybody primarily in categories of in or out, saved or not, believer or nonbeliever. Besides the fact that these terms are offensive to those who are the “un” and “non”, they work against Jesus’ teachings about how we are to treat each other. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor, and our neighbor can be anybody. We are all created in the image of God, and we are all sacred, valuable creations of God. Everybody matters. To treat people differently based on who believes what is to fail to respect the image of God in everyone. As the book of James says, “God shows no favoritism.” So we don’t either.”
— Rob Bell
“The moment God is figured out with nice neat lines and definitions, we are no longer dealing with God.”
— Rob Bell (Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith)