Jesus-loving single guys, this blog is for you:
i would love to hear from single Jesus-loving guys who read this blog. This seems to be a really huge cry from Jesus-loving women out there and i really think it’s important that we hear both sides. I don’t believe this is only a guy responsibility. I think there are issues on both sides of this dilemma and the best way to move forward on it is to hear from guys in the situation.
Here are some of my questions:
* Do you think it is fair to say that the guys in church need to step up and take some responsibility on this issue?
* In what areas do you think the girls in church need to take responsibility for the situation?
* What do girls do or fail to do that exacerbates (increase) the issue?
* What can the girls do to make it easier for you guys to ask them out/initiate relationships?
In case you were not yet aware of what issue we are talking about, the topic was raised when I wrote that you need to date someone who has Jesus as their number one focus. A bunch of girls responded by saying “where are these guys?” – either they don’t exist (Christ-following girls outnumber Christ-following guys in church) or else they are not asking us out.
From a single guys perspective, what are your thoughts? Why is it that girls have this perception which often leads to them dating people outside of the church cos of frustration or loneliness and lack of opportunity?
I can’t really comment. I wish I had single girls in my church. well girls of a decent age for me. I am 30. and I sense that some churches here (in the UK), lack that age range between 25 – 40.
so can’t really answer the questions…or could i..
i was interested to see what the girls had to say, so i checked out both rabbit holes for this blog…lots more chat on the girls page i must say. and all very interesting.
darrelhoff, i’m in a similar boat to you. i will be 25 this year, and i find myself in a small church with 3 people (including myself) that are around my age – one’s a guy, so that doesn’t help, and the other is a girl already in a serious relationship. i love my church – been there almost my whole life. i’ve visited a few different churches, but none of them feel like home quite as much as this one.
i’ve told God that i would like to have a family of my own. He knows the desires of my heart. but, i also know that i can’t ask Him to deliver my wife into arms without actually seeking some solid christian girls who have Jesus as their number 1. i have plenty of friends in other churches, and so what i’ve said to myself, is that i will keep visiting other churches when i’m not leading worship in my own church. i really don’t want it to sound like i’m “shopping around for a wife”, but i think it can only bring about good things. even if i don’t find someone to date in another church, i’m sure to make some more solid christian friends.
i live and work alone – a freelance artist. i don’t like the club scene, and in my close friend group, most of them are in relationships. our group doesn’t grow that much cause most of them are content, and as i said, there aren’t many opportunities in my church. so, i’m gonna try find other groups of friends, and hopefully hang out with more christian guys and girls. only God knows what will happen 🙂
Sounds almost exactly like me. Although there are a few more than 3 people around my age at my church. But still its not easy.
Seriously tho we’re like the same person, I hardly have to explain my background now (i’ll make some direct replies to Brett’s Qs at the bottom). All the best bro, hope God leads you.
Ps girls there are more like kevin and me, its not true that there are no single Christian guys out there. Don’t give up I’m not gonna. Besides this whole relationship thing was God’s idea before ours (genesis 2-vs18)
I’ll just hazard this here, but I think it applies to both sexes. Just from this side of the blog, there seems to be a resistance to ‘go shopping’ and look around/expand socialising circles in an intentional way. I’m not convinced either way yet – still thinking on it and have been for a while – but I do know that some guys (and I am certain women too) – act as a kind of backbone for their churches. Whether they are pastors, or just seem to be trapped in some form of ministry – always leading worship/kids/sound, etc. – they just don’t come across ladies’ radars. Solid guys, who so love the Lord and are willing to serve, that they would rather be doing His work than be putting themselves out there. These are the people that I look to as inspirations for leading and I ask ladies if this is not something to consider? If I look at the guys who I would try to build a church on (not that I am literally, just figuratively), it is the others that say “To hell with going over to speak to that girl, we need someone to pour the tea and I’ll do it.” Aren’t these the very guys that display the kind of servant leadership hearts that ladies actually want? (Gents: I am not trying to say that if you are not serving, you are an inadequate guy! But seriously, if you copy Jesus, He served without passing up the opportunity in order to pursue His own goals.)
This isn’t perfect logic, I know of a lot more complexities, but I just want to shine the spotlight on the guys that aim the spotlight on God. They are so hidden (in service) that they are forgotten or seemingly unattractive.
These are some interesting comments. Personally I’m not sure what I whant from a relationship yet and I’m tired of being labelled as a jerk for breaking another girls heart (or maybe it’s just that I label myself that way). It feels like I’m expected to pick someone, anyone, because the girls are waiting…
What about living your life to the full even if your living it as a single person (at the moment) and honestly being ok with whatever God has planned for you ? For however long you’ll be single.
All the “wisdom” about relationships is really confusing and tiring.
I think it’s fair to say that guys need to step up to the plate, and own any fear of rejection if they like the girl etc. I think guys also need to learn how to love Jesus better, as it’s only once we get to be more like him that we are able to see past ‘having a hot wife’ the media tells us to have…
Christian media can be so devastating too…firstly on confidence – there is a desire to be ‘superchristian’ among christian men today, especially in well off churches. When you have the big worship leader and preacher types getting on stage and preaching a slick message with their amazing body, amazing hair, designer clothes and watch etc. with a stunning wife/girlfriend in the audience, nice car, new album…it does send off weird messages especially when the message is along the lines of anti-materialism and pro God life-style. man, sometimes it’s hard not to covet and worship the guy on stage…
and I think girls also have a picture of ‘a hot husband’ in their heads…perhaps they want their man to be the man on stage trying to save the world…
Girls (in my church) at least but I think in general, especially in ‘cool’ churches have a problem where they like to comment on other guys IN FRONT of their guy friends…and how awesome they are in terms of relatively shallow things like dress sense, and singing voice, and body type…and then they wonder why no guys want to ask them out…I’m thinking “if she is looking at Chris Tomlin and sending me the message that THAT’S a real man then sheesh, there’s no way I’ve got a chance with her…” NO GUYS in my church do this to girls and get away with it…if we comment on how ‘hot’ a girl is we are instantly accused of lust, which, probably most of the time it is.
So PLEASE girls, stop making shallow comments about Edward Cullen and Brad Pitt and the hot single worship leader with an amazing voice…all you do is chase away the real men who think you’re the best thing since sliced bread.
also, a guy who asks too many girls out in a church is going to be seen as ‘having an overenthusiastic sex drive’, and probably judged on the basis. in the day and age where guy issues are insensitively brought up in sermon topics for instance the ‘90% of men masturbate figure’ (so look around you and guess which men have this problem, never mind the fact that many christian men fight this battle with incredible honour) no guy wants to be seen going after too many girls…maybe we just shouldn’t care about our reputation…
i like this. as a girl I know that we do this WAY too much. We need to be looking at the deeper stuff. I’ve only gotten this over the last year or so, where its become more important to me whether or not a guy is respectful/generous/encouraging/brave etc than how hot he looks when playing the drums. Gonna start reminding my girlfriends of this too…
Heigh maaaaaan, only just got to this series thanks to your FB message. Good stuff, but could you link to the post where the “bunch of girls” raise their concerns? Might be helpful to know what I’m commenting on before I comment.
Ok so seeing as I’m more knowledgeable about successful dating-that-leads-to-breakups than successful dating-that-leads-to-marriage I’d like to single out one thing that girls do to their guy friends and / or boyfriends of friends which is unhelpful:
Don’t ask me if I think my girlfriend is pretty, ok? That’s not why Christian guys should fall in love with girls. Reality being what it is, that may be part of why I noticed the girl in the first place, but it’s not going to be what keeps me interested long-term enough to get married to her. Consider these situations:
(1) I’ve found myself romantically attracted to girls whom at some stage I thought were not particularly physically attractive. As I grew closer to them, I noticed their other amazing features and became interested… so imagine my annoyance when the question of looks is the first thing that comes up when I talk to anyone!
(2) I’ve dated girls whom I thought were very physically attractive – and still do even years post-breakup – but during the relationship I stopped noticing their looks and just started noticing all the things that were indications that we weren’t good together. Well, I imagine that the askers would have been happy to hear me say that on a scale from Baldrick to 10 she’s Scarlett Johanson – but it still wouldn’t have been a good relationship.
It concerns me when people make looks (of other people’s significant others) the first thing they are interested in. Is it because you want to know that your friend found someone who thinks she is pretty? Well stop – rather try and test whether your friend has found someone who values her for the things that God says are of value. Is it because you are worried that no-one will ever think that you are good looking, and if your friend has found someone then maybe it will mean that you stand a chance too? Again – stop. Stop harder, because now you are no longer wishing the best for your friend, you’re just thinking about yourself.
And no – I don’t particularly care whether my girlfriend thinks I look like Brad or like Baldrick. If I look like Baldrick then wow I must have made a good impression in some other really important areas to still have her in my life. As to does a girl have a right to know that her significant other thinks she is beautiful – yes, she does – he can tell her himself, and it doesn’t have to be related to how physically attractive he thought she was on the day he met her.
Last little thing: if you know who I am please be aware all comments related to girlfriends, Baldrick, Brad, Scarlett Johanson etc are entirely hypothetical. I’m single, and if I wasn’t I wouldn’t be using rating scales like that. K?
SFCA… well said. i like that.
life is about having fun, living life to the full. I once remember someone telling me that girls dig it… when they see a guy just totally having fun. I mean… a guy/girl just going out to a club or church, whatever it may be… just to score…
that’s not too attractive. you go out… to have fun with your friends. dance like no one’s watching. just have a good time.
love is messy. love is beautiful. love is fun. love can be hurtful.
but someone said… love makes the world go round 🙂
thank goodness this life starts with God’s love. He reaches us first. that’s grace!
I am 27. I am happy being single, probably for the first time in my life and the thought of not getting married does not really bug me anymore. I do feel the church, or more specifically the people in the church, places to much emphasis on relationships which unnecessarily complicates things. I think it is a fair comment, as mentioned earlier, that in the church we might have unreasonable expectations of the types of people we would want to date but I don’t think it is fair to say that this is more of a guy thing than a girl thing.
great answers/thorts guys, thankx so much for sharing, fritz maaaaannnn i have secretly added the link in thre blog but also here is the email link which is followed by my two blogs of response – http://brettfish.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/dating-q-and-a-where-have-all-the-good-christian-men-gone-the-email
Very good comments guys, really hit home here. I also went the route of the guy who went clubbing and kissed the church goodbye.
I used to go to youth groups for various reasons, one of them being Jesus, and another to hopefully meet a girl. I did notice that the guys who were in with the church, especially the band members and guys who lead the activities were the talk of the girl groups. They would laugh and giggle and look at these guys constantly. The leader with the pretty wife, the cool band member- very sought after. There was no way to make an opening into their circles, let alone ask a girl out who probably had posters of the band member on her bedroom wall. I tried and it didn’t work out, leaving me feel rejected and a little bitter. Bitter because the whole group was geared almost completely in the favor of the single guys in positions of power in the group ie leader and band guy.
So I too stopped going. I got myself into the bars and clubbing scene with a vengeance. It was exciting and different. The playing field was more even-anything was possible under those night lights or lack thereof. Women were aplenty and they were mostly prettier and sexier than the youth group girls. These were women, more nature, not looking for Brad Pitt or some band member ( however if Bono appeared I guess they would be). It was still hard to outright approach then, but much easier with the guys as backup spurring you on. The dark dancefloors were easy pickings also. Yes, alcohol was involved to a large extent, but that just removed that preconditioned mindset that the media has given us. Picking up women was easy. All you needed to do was exercise in the week and take care of your body and dress decently. I had two outfits that I wore and pumped some iron and drank and met hot girls on those clubs. It was fun in many ways. I forgot all about those childish church girls who swooned over the church leaders and bands. They’re probably at other night clubs every weekend by now as they have probably realized their immaturity at trying to get these guys. Their ideals were unrealistic.
The church environment is a very controlled environment. There are power structures in place and even young girls are drawn to that power and mistake it for attraction or whatever. It’s very hard fir young guys to compete in that environment with older more established guys or popular band members.
At the clubs, you get the whole night to meet women on a neutral ground. We all know what were there for and nobody is using churches to put themselves above others in the pecking order. At clubs, there is an element of excitement and danger, women dressed nicely and much more willing go talk to you. If you’re rejected in a club, you’ve got your buddies to back you up and it ends there, find a new woman. At youth groups, if you’re rejected, all her friends as well as the whole group gets to hear about it including the band guys who really feel smug.
Go to church for Jesus. Go to clubs, pubs or wherever else for women. It’s possible to meet women at church as Brett did, but very slim odds.
Maybe they can change the youth groups in some way but I doubt it, as there will always be leaders and band guys who the women swoon over.
Give me a December night in a hot dark nightclub with the music and hot women and a good group of drinking buddies anytime. That’s exciting, it makes the stomach tingle and the hormones pump. It makes me feel Ali e like anything is possible all the way to the end of the night…
This is interesting. Very much based on your perception though.
Yes, you obviously DO get girls who are attracted to the “power” aspect of guys with positions of authority in church.
But don’t forget to consider that the attraction to those guys, from the shoes of girls who are genuinely out to live to honour God, comes mainly from the blatant heart for God that is shown in the way these guys are involved in and serving in the church and people.
A guy doesn’t have to be a band member or the pastor to be superly attractive for this reason.
I’m attracted to guys who evidently live to serve God. Being on stage is definitely not the only way to do that. And I know MANY other girls who feel this way too.
*”serving” not “serving in” – I rock at typos.
Fair enough, girls being attracted to God following guys is great, don’t compromise. Just asking for some acceptance of us ‘not so perfect guys’. I think the idea here is that guys quickly get in trouble for having ‘high standards’ with regard to external things. Girls can have some pretty high standards for the internal things. (which I concede is a better position and far safer, but its does hinder guys trying to step up)
(i sacrifice typos and spelling and grammar and sentence coherence for speed all the time)
I disagree Ash. Girls are attracted to guys just as guys are attracted to girls. Girls are attracted to power, plain and simple. If a guy is good looking, has a position of power or wealth, women are generally more attracted, all else being equal.
Guys go for girls who look fertile and healthy and can produce healthy children. Women go for men who are powerful and can support them and their future children. Its deeply ingrained into our survival instinct. To pretend now that its because the person is honoring God is attracting you is a lie to yourself. Besides most times these people are honoring themselves.
To say that you only go for guys who have “power” and say its because its your way of honoring God, is a very poor pathetic reason. Why then should other regular guys at the youth group even bother then with girls like that? They would go find women elsewhere. At least out in bars, there are silly excuses like “to honor God I’ll go for this handsome guy on stage or in a christian rock group…”. No pretences.
I too stopped going to these youth groups as I found it to be true that the women only go for the most popular guys there. Simple as that. I also tried a bit but quickly gave up and met more mature women elsewhere that were more beautiful inside and outside than these so-called youth group groupies were.
The playing field for most guys at youth groups is not fair, thats why most guys leave – plain and simple fact. You’ll generally find some guys use the church and persevere in that environment for the sole purpose of gaining popularity or learning to play guitar or drums to get in with the church and meet women.
Most guys leave for these reasons.
Woah.. Hold the phone. I think you missed my point, Brian.
I didn’t say I only go for guys with “power”. I said I am attracted to guys who have a heart to serve. A guy can be handing out bulletins at the door on Sundays or volunteering in some ministry where they give sandwiches to hungry kids (there’s not much “power” in that) but he’s more attractive because he’s serving. It says a lot about his heart.
Like I said.. A guy doesn’t have to be on stage to be attractive as a God-serving man.
What I’m saying is that guys may be mis-reading the attraction girls have to guys like the ones on the worship team etc. SOME girls have that shallow attraction to their “power”, but others are just looking for a guy with that “sold-out-for-God”ness – which, in that case, isn’t only found in guys on stage.
Hi Brian, maybe you should investigate the reason why you are going (or went) to Youth Group. To meet girls should actually be a bonus…
Scientifically, men look for woman with a good hip to waist ratio (i can’t remember what defines a “good ratio” but it was similar in all test subjects) and women, quite simply, like tall men. At least taller than them.
That’s why to some extent band members look taller on stage (raised platform) and they are displaying a unique skill (in relative terms) which scores them bonus points.
Tip(s) for the men:
1) look or be taller (hint: use shoes)
2) Do something awesome in her presence. i’m not saying travel with a pocket guitar and shred at every oppertunity. Just displaying the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control – is WAY more AWESOME than banging a drum on stage for instance.
Ash has a point: men who serve are a lot more attractive than men who dont walk the walk.
imho
|< f
I think there’s (potentially) a few issues:
1. Not enough Christian men in church – Brett knows my issues/frustrations with church, and I don’t want to turn this comment into more on that, but in my opinion there do seem to either be less “guys” in church than “girls” (which I believe is related to it – generally – being a not very manly vibe) or the guys aren’t as committed (they attend, but perhaps aren’t really in to the whole “being Holy” thing).
2. Porn – take a group of guys who’re willing to be honest with you, ask them how many of them look at porn, then ask those who admit to it if they think it’s right to enter a Godly relationship with that baggage, or bring it in to a marriage, and whether they’re waiting to “get over it” first… from the experience I’ve had dealing with guys addicted to porn, most will probably say they’re trying to get over it first. Then go and look at at the stats on how many Christian guys are actually addicted, then ask “how” these guys are going to get over it (and ever reach the “now able to date”) stage. I’d say porn’s a massive road block.
3. “God Said” – admit it, we’ve all heard those “God told me he was the one / God told me she was the one” stories… 2 people meet, 3 months later they’re married… couple that with the whole “Christians shouldn’t date, they should court”… suddenly everyone wants God’s stamp of approval and divine intervention before it’s “okay” to date.
4. Marriage is for a really, really, really long time – I’m dating someone, that I genuinely love, and can imagine spending my life with… but if we get married, that’s for a REALLY long time… I mean, I need to know it’s going to work. Sure, some of it is Faith and some of it is commitment and discipline, but do I REALLY know her well enough to make that decision now? And how long is long enough? Do I really need to get married just yet? Why don’t I rather wait until my mid 30’s, make sure I’ve saved up enough cash and have a stable career… more importantly, I have to be the “Spiritual Leader”, I have to make sure I can be (what 25 year old feels he’s ready for that?). All in all, it’s easier just to put it all on hold.
5. Sexual attraction (vaguely related to the “porn” thing) – should you date someone you’re sexually attracted to? Isn’t that kind like playing with fire, what if you can’t “wait till marriage”. Do you really want to date someone you’re not sexually attracted to? Sure, “beauty’s in the eye of the beholder”, and I’m sure true love looks beyond the surface and all that, but the attractiveness is potentially a problem as well… can’t date the girls it’s not “safe” to, don’t want to date the girls it is “safe” to = no dating.
6. Why date? Sure, we all want companionship, but if you haven’t found “the one” (or “the two”, God should be “the One”) and aren’t super-sure in advance, isn’t it just a recipe for disaster? With all the dating-negativity going around, aren’t you almost saying “you’re the person I’m planning on marrying one day” before you even start “courting” (because, if you’re a Christian, dating is from the devil… mmmkay? Christians court, not date). Not something I’d sign up for in a hurry.
7. The break up – I’d like to think Christians are better at this than non-Christians, but if your church has been your home for many years, and your now-ex-girlfriend has been attending for many years as well and it’s also her spiritual home, how do you deal with the pain and hurt of seeing her every Sunday in “your” church. You can’t really go to another church, just because a relationship ended, but does it really help that you’re so focused on her sitting two rows in front of you, to the left, and the pain you feel now that you’ve separated that the preacher’s sermon goes unnoticed by you, and all you feel is empty? Personally I could do without that.
8. Misc/other – do Christian(s/men) really know when, why, or how to date? In the “secular world” it’s easy, you find someone you like, spend time with them, get to know them, and repeat until either wants things to change. What phase of their personal/financial/career/spiritual lives should Christians start dating? When are they “ready”, when are they NOT “ready”? How do you ask a “sister” (in Christ) to pursue the idea of you two… doing what (marrying?)… together? How do you deal with rejection then? What if you were so sure “God said so”, and what does that do to your faith? How do you “break up” if it’s not working out?
Just some thoughts, sorry if any were repeated or seem like madness… those are some of the things I wrestled with during my single days. Also… what happens if you really like a girl who used to date your church’s youth/young-adult pastor, and she really likes you… is she “out of bounds” due to some “bro code” or “pastoral code” 😉
Spot on
Ya, the point about sexual attraction and playing with fire is a good one…if I’m honest I struggle to see how I could date for more than a year without running into trouble. I don’t really think this was such a problem in the past, marriages simply happened quicker. Today, people can take many years to make up their mind and it’s frowned upon to get married if you’re too young.
On point 5, I have been asking myeslf about the other side recently – the lack of spark. I don’t have answers here, but there are times when I’ve felt like I’m on the receiving end of – “I’m just not that into you”, which I have interpreted as based on physical attraction, amongst other things – and times where I felt like I’m making that judgement myself. It is not necessarily a ‘sexual attraction’ that is required, but surely a physical one is at least?
I’ll try just answer ur questions, then maybe add another thought or 2.
* Do you think it is fair to say that the guys in church need to step up and take some responsibility on this issue?
Yes we need to get out there, fight through the fear of rejection and betrayal. I’m keen to be part of the solution, stop living in passivity (which i feel the don’t date till ur ready to marry them thing has encouraged) We need to trust God, after all women were his idea in the 1st place (genesis 2, vs 18) but sitting around waiting is not really that helpful.
* In what areas do you think the girls in church need to take responsibility for the situation?
Guys have feelings too, I’ve been hurt by girls and it makes ‘stepping up’ harder. The best thing I can ask for from a girl is honesty. Just say how you feel. If a guy expresses interest be honest. Even if that is a I’m not sure. Thats fine, but please work to figure it out and let us know before we sit thinking about you for ages. Yes girls it happens to guys too. I often sit around for months (even years once) thinking about a girl and where the relationship could go. Its really unhelpful if that happens for too long. It makes everything hurt more. Its turns being turned down into being betrayed. its as if you’ve dated in your head before making any real world progress. (bad idea don’t do it, ok thats advice for both sides i suppose, or just me ranting), Recently i’ve resolved to make a move sooner than later to avoid this type of problem (although that may scare the ‘date=marriage’ girls off)
So please be honest so we don’t have to wonder, guys don’t take hints that well.
* What do girls do or fail to do that exacerbates (increase) the issue?
this will be a kinda summary of what i said just now. kinda a favour I’d ask girls: “don’t count guys out to soon, if we don’t meet the ‘list’ give us a chance, But also don’t lead us on if ur not interested, i don’t need sympathy i need honesty”
* What can the girls do to make it easier for you guys to ask them out/initiate relationships?
if your interested in a guy try make it obvious, we’ll pick it up if it is and either move towards or away depending on if we feel the same.
oh and if all else fails try the ‘grade 8 method’: tell your friend to go and tell his friend. its pretty direct while still providing some level of protection from hurt.
(sorry that second one got kinda long…. oh Brett so when you gonna start a dating service?)
i like this a lot! especially the being real & honest part:
…The best thing I can ask for from a girl is honesty. Just say how you feel. If a guy expresses interest be honest. Even if that is a I’m not sure…
…i don’t need sympathy i need honesty…
Thanks. I do understand that feelings are not always cut and dry, people are not always sure how they feel. But we need to try be clear, myself included.
I woke up this morning with this thought:
(and it was confirmed by the lady/girl who emailed Brett and he posted it this morning.)
There have been many discussions going on about theis who is right and how do we get right for girls or vica versa?
But are we not missing the point of church? or youth groups? or even just our lives.
I was reminded of this verse this morning: Matthew 6: 33 “Seek first His kingdom and all His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.”
In other words… this should start with God. We’re at church or youth or cell to be enpowered for God. we’re here for God’s glory. God’s not just “interest”
God, if I go to these cool church things.. the “interest” I want… is a girl/boy friend?
Maybe we should be living to bring fame to Jesus.
Live out abundant lives (John 10: 10), because that is an attractive quality in itself.
Don’t merely exist for Jesus, live passionately for Him.
Then in His time, Jesus the bride of the church (cool imagery), will bring someone our way.
By His spirit, He may even nudge your heart, and say: “psst, this is the girl/guy … talk to them”
But if we’re just on the hunt all the time, that’s just unhealthy.
well, those are just some of my thoughts…over and out.
hm, interesting Darrel. I want to pick up on a point you make right at the end because it kind of feels very similar to the “get your relationship with God right and he will bring you a partner” logic which I totally disagree with. You said “Then in his time Jesus…will bring someone your way” – implying that if you do all these things, get them right, have Jesus as your focus and interest, live to bring him fame, that he will “reward” you with a partner. I don’t know if this is what you were intending to say but it is bad theology I think and very unhelpful to people who are single. Check out this post which a friend of mine suggested I resurrect for this discussion: http://valanderson.wordpress.com/2010/06/26/on-marriage-not-being-a-reward/
okay “AMAZED” you raised a good point. I agree the way you descibed yes that would be bad theology. i didn’t mean it as a reward.
Life is about living for God and well reaching out for others. we are made for connection and community.
but I think our serving and living for God should totally be out of love for Him.
but it seems we’re making too much of a priority of “hooking up” with others and dating and stuff. I mean, that is all awesome.
but yes agreed.. that shoud not be our intention “looking for a reward”
I am sorry it came across that way in the comment, was not my intention 🙂
A friend of mine once said something very cool about “Seek first His kingdom and all His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you”.
We really don’t get it most of the time. We think its like eating dinner first and then we get pudding. But its more along the lines of God adding to us the things we need for our ministry, the things we need to seek his kingdom. So if thats food and clothes and a roof over our heads then he’ll provide it. If we need a partner for the things he’s calling us to then he’ll provide it. So we aren’t getting a reward for seeking God, we’re just getting what we need to seek him more:)
I suppose you could say I am one of those guys who never step’s up and asks, or at least I was until recently. The reason I would put to this is that society has painted the dating scene as this “game” that two people play with each other…trying to send subtle signals to the other person that you like them and trying to read what they think of you. Where its is way too direct to approach the girl and just ask them if they would be interested in going on a date. The problem is that I am the kind of guy that likes things open..I like to express how things are with me and know how things are with you and know where we both stand on things, so the rules of this “game” have scared me a fair amount. I also saw it as an easy way for miss interpretation and in fact experienced said miss interpretation a few times, where one completely miss gages where the other person stands.
However, I recently got frustrated with this situation and just asked a girl out, fairly blatantly, and was surprised that although she turned me down, she was grateful that i was so open about it rather than beating around the bush and she was very honest and gave me her reasons why she wasn’t able to and it actually led to conversation that i believe grew our friendship. I came away from that experience feeling, a bit disappointed but glad that I knew what was what.
So my point is that I think there needs to be more openness and honesty on both sides, letting each other know how you feel. I’m not saying it will always go as smoothly as it did in that situation but at least then you know where you stand, can move on and don’t waste time wondering, “what if..”, or “I think she/he likes me..” when there is actually nothing there.
its not just about wasting time, its about emotionally investing and that can really hurt. As far as possible we should keep short accounts with our feelings, to keep them in check.
I agree this is not a game!!! and if it is there are no rules or even a general trend of things.
Interresting discussion. I’ll add my 2cents.
It sometimes blows my mind how some girls seem to activly remove themselves from the ‘game’. You invite them for a social with friends (even tell them to bring a friend along so they don’t feel alone amongst ‘strangers’), and then they give some very poor excuse. Or, they say they’ll come, but cancel on nr99. Why?? So, even though you haven’t physically hung out together, the guy has already learned something from you. Ie not easy-going girl. And his interest in her takes a knock.
I know of so many girls whom I would love to get to know, but they seem to not want to be known. I can’t say I like any of them (yet), but there’s potential.
I always tell my girl friends to give a guy AT LEAST 3 chances to take her out. There’s nothing more frustrating than a girl not giving you a chance to get to know her. And her you. Because guess what you girls out there, the guy is JUST as uncertain as you are. But in his case he needs to act even though uncertain, because it is up to men to make the first move.
I’m afraid those girls that always say no don’t get invited anymore. If the guy asks you out and you honestly can’t go because of some valid reason, make a suggestion of an alternative get together. Show some sign of life!
agreed
like.
good point. Don’t decide too soon.
🙂
This has been an extensive discussion and some really great points have been made– some really crap points too. I just want to say that we as men need to grow a pair & and grow up.
Who cares if Mr Leader or Guitar Player appears to be the object of desire for many single ladies in the church? That gives us no excuse to go to ‘easier’ places to satisfy our lust. And if all our efforts with the ladies are spurned, Jesus was a single man his whole life. We better take comfort in this. He understands living with longing better than we do.
Life is bewildering and can hurt and be lonely– a lot. I know this well. But in the midst of the confusion, there is so much to glory and so much joy to be found at God’s feet– I know this too.
Look, we’re adults and we’re responsible for every choice we make. If that means we decide to try and try and try again despite constant rejection, or instead to go out and hook up with randoms every weekend, or perhaps we give up and sit around in passive despair, God has given us the free will to do as we please. There will be consequences that we’ll have to face up to as a result; some good, some bad. This is life. Let’s stop whining and do something positive about it.
This is not to say that I don’t appreciate this conversation or think that it is a step in a positive direction. I do. I love the fact that we are shedding light on the labyrinth that has become dating in the church. I, however, was disappointed by some of the cop-out sentiments shared above.
I think we as Christian men need to take a hard look at ourselves and ask whether we are really serious about Christ (who didn’t say, ‘follow me and you will have an easy life and lots of women falling over you and riches and fame, etc’). Because if we are, the only response we can have is to man up.
And we need to believe that we are amazing, even if we are not the stereotypical supersaint, because God has made us amazing. Our relational status does not change this fact, but this fact might go a long way to change our relational status. (Random aside: I knew a guy whose mantra was, ‘take the bold option.’)
In the midst of all the questions and mess (whether or not we find love), there is a truth that we need to press into: God is always good. Not even all the heroes of the faith had kiff lives like Abraham, Isaac, Noah, etc (see Heb. 11.35b-38), but they held on to his goodness while being destitute and oppressed and mistreated (read ‘desperate’ and ‘rejected’).
Anyhoo, I hate to preach. Yes, we as the church have some issues to sort out. But, more importantly, we as men need to be men and live.
Ps: if you were wondering, I am 24 & still single. Have completely failed so far to crack a relationship in my life. And even though the temptation and possibility is there to go outside the church, the bible is clear 😉
Fat AMEN!
I have to disagree with you there Kambani. Everything in life should be a Church. If I choose to go to a bar and carry Jesus with me in my heart then thats my CHurch. Wherever 2 or more people come together, that is Church. It doesn’t need to be in a building to make it happen.
You can meet people anywhere, not just in a youth group. A youth group as people here have said is not a fair playing ground. If you go there, you need to play by their rules which means that only those on stage (guitar players, youth leaders) have the advantage all else being equal. Women are drawn to that type of thing.
Now if I choose to go to a bar or club, I am at the advantage as I can dance well and I go to gym and pump iron, so I look pretty good. Its shallow I know, but then so are youth groups where everyone has to sit and listen to one guy playing guitar or speaking.
So my point is that Church can be anywhere. We can meet people anywhere – no right or wrong about where we meet them.
You see Kambani, not “easier” places, but rather we go to places where we have a fairer chance. Going to a youth group where there are bands and guys on stage makes it difficult to meet women. It would be like going to a rugby springbok afterparty and trying to chat to women there – not gonna happen – all the women will be going after the rugby players. Same with youth groups – all the women go for the leaders or guys who are cool and play guitar.
So I go meet women at clubs and dance – better vibe, no power structures in place that detract from the regular guy.
I had not really thought I’d comment, but I have been drawn progressively more into these conversations over the last couple of weeks. I’ll make this short and simple and put some conviction in it, as I feel it is needed here.
Someone used to reiterate ‘Love Jesus, love people’. Keep it simple. Life is about us and Jesus and ladies are an amazing bonus.
More technically, manning up does need to happen, as well as a bit of stepping up from the ladies. Funnily enough, a confident committed guy/girl serving the Lord is the one that we naturally gravitate to because that is Jesus drawing us to Himself, through them. We would then probably be okay to ask them out (our own situations having been considered). Being strong in the Lord and knowing what they are doing in His plan for them is what sets said guy/girl up to say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ with confidence (and not uncaringly).
Boldness and openness do seem to be lacking in general on both sides here. But if you do ANYTHING for the Lord and have had conviction on it, then regardless of the result, you know that He brings the best in it for those that love Him. He promised us that and I believe those promises. This is not about being licentious with grace, just being decisive!
(Similarly, if you drop the ball and don’t act, He still gives us a helping hand. But we would have less anguish if we had clarity on a situation, which comes from purposeful activity.)
May we all be so sure in God’s purpose for our lives that there isn’t room for uncertainty. Not to minimise the issue, but Kambani was right. We are here to be with the Lord and our own desires for relationship (very real) should not trump that.
Go to Churches and youth groups if you feel you must, but then go for Jesus and not for picking people up.
If you want to meet people then almost anywhere is a good place. Do not limit yourself to a youth group where the rules are one-sides.
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To be honest in quite a few places and churches guys tend to hide or be timid about searching for and developing friendships with girls
The girls need to be aware and to stop having a list of (ridiculously high – knight in shining armour) expectations – because most guys won’t hold up to everything on their checklist and to be honest that scares guys off- do they want us to be the focus of their life or Christ?