so about a week ago, Blue Like Jazz author ‘Donald Miller’ blogged about why ‘I don’t worship God by Singing, I connect with Him elsewhere’ and the internet went wild – Burn the Witch! Okay not quite, although Don did tweet a little later, ‘Blogged about not going to church today. More shame and guilt @replies than I’ve ever received on twitter. I feel immense forgiveness.’
He followed this one up with one titled, ‘Why I don’t go to church very often, a follow up blog.’ and once again people went nuts.
i feel like i have some idea of what Don was trying to say and i definitely agreed with him on some stuff and so responded with this of my own:
I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t die so you could meet in a building
and the internet went absolutely… well ‘as you were’ [i’m not a very big internet rippler]…
but then anyone who is anyone [and many who are not] had an opinion and most of them were writing blog posts on it and the topic gained a lot of airplay which is not the worst of things – hopefully people have been listening to each other and at least trying to hear what everyone else is saying and hopefully God will be moving our hearts towards a better and more effective understanding of what church is and what it is meant to be…
WHY YOU SHOULD STOP GOING TO CHURCH
well, firstly you shouldn’t! [stop going to church i mean] that’s not what i am saying. i don’t think that’s what Don was saying. and while some people took a moment to listen and then responded to what they heard, i think the majority of people got an idea in their head and then responded to that. which was largely unhelpful.
if you know me to any level of depth you will know that i am a champion of the church. in fact if you ask me what my passion is in life, i will describe it this way: i am passionate about seeing the church live out who we say we are and who we are supposed to be.
i am thoroughly convinced that the church is God’s idea and plan and method of transforming this world, BUT i am not convinced that that needs to take place on a sunday at a particular building.
and i don’t want to spend this whole post trying to speak on behalf of Donald Miller, because i can’t, but my impression was that he was saying the same thing on this point – i am not trying to get people to stop meeting and ‘doing church’ on sundays… what i am trying to suggest is that maybe church or the church is a little bit bigger than that.
IT’S ALL GREEK TO ME
my tag team buddy, Sean Du Toit, who studies Greek and reads commentaries for fun, had this to say:
I think you’ve missed something significant by making the word “church” a synonym for “people of God”. The word ἐκκλησία means ‘assembly’, or ‘gathering’. In the Greek Lexicon, Louw-Nida describe the term this way: “The term ἐκκλησία was in common usage for several hundred years before the Christian era and was used to refer to an assembly of persons constituted by well- defined membership… For the NT it is important to understand the meaning of ἐκκλησία as ‘an assembly of God’s people.’ In the rendering of ἐκκλησία a translator must beware of using a term which refers primarily to a building rather than to a congregation of believers. In many contexts ἐκκλησία may be readily rendered as ‘gathering of believers’ or ‘group of those who trust in Christ.’”
And more, which you can read in the comments section in my first blog on this.
however, this and many other comments addressed to Don or myself seems to insinuate/assume or imply that i was suggesting that Christ followers don’t need to gather. and that is completely not true – there is no community without communing and i believe strongly in community. what i keep saying is that maybe the gathering doesn’t have to necessarily be on a Sunday in a church building. it can be [and good for those who do that and are part of that – like i am, i am part of a church congregation that meets on a Sunday – this whole discourse is not me trying to get out of doing that] but it can also be other types of gathering which will need to be intentional but which perhaps can take place at a meal table, breaking actual bread and drinking wine and being closer perhaps to what Jesus meant when He said, ‘Do this in remembrance of Me?’
the other side of this whole conversation for me is the mission of the church, which includes things like:
[1] Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, mind and your neighbour as yourself. Also love your enemy and bless them.
[2] Forgiving everyone who has wronged you and even interrupting worship if necessary to go and make right with a brother who has sinned against you.
[3] Making disciples and baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything Jesus taught us
[4] Reaching out to the least of these, in particular widows and orphans
oh, and [5] Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me and [6] be known by the Love we have for each other and be one in Christ.
Now i know Sunday congregations that are barely living out the mission of the church – in fact there are many where people come and are entertained and pretty much watch or maybe participate in a performance and then return home largely unchanged and expect that other people will do the above things which is after all why they put their money in the collection plate anyways.
I also know groups of people in different guises who do not attend a Sunday congregation necessarily but who love God and are completely living out the mission of the church in community and who are growing and being led and wrestling with scripture and serving those around them and worshipping God through art and spoken word and music and dance.
According to the majority of the internet buzz, we are saying that the first group is more “Church” than the second group.
What i am wondering is, when both groups stand before Jesus one day, which one will He identify as His bride?
The Parable of the Two Sons [Matthew 21]
28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ 29 ” ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Those who said they were the thing vs. Those who were the thing? Would love to hear your thoughts…
I’ve heard from my buddy Sean so far… what things do YOU think define church as this thing we are needing to be part of?
[in case it wasn’t clear enough, i want to state that i am NOT telling you to leave church – just to understand a wider definition for it that may be larger than the idea you have in mind – there needs to be a combination of people gathering together – in some way, place, form – but also people living out the Jesus-followingness of being a Christian – has to be both!]
[Looking at the question, ‘Did you go to church today?’]
[If you had to choose between looking like church or acting like church]
I traded the more traditional practices of church for something we felt God calling us into almost 5 years ago. It may not be for everyone but I cant imagine going back to the old way now. I blogged on what I had learned outside the walls a while back which you can read over here. http://wrostoll.blogspot.com/2012/04/10-things-i-learnt-when-i-left-church.html
thankx for sharing Wes, really liked the breakdown of those points – what does church or community look like for you at the moment?
I think we’re talking about different things and misunderstanding each other. I no way meant to *insinuate/assume or imply that [you were] suggesting that Christ followers don’t need to gather.* What I am insisting on is that that gathering being the same group of people who meet regularly. The person who has random bible studies with different people every week, or meets in coffee shops, in homes but never with the same people, is not participating in a biblical vision of community.
I’m not worried about when, where, how or with whom we meet. I’m concerned that we don’t misunderstand what Paul and Jesus are talking about when they talk about Church. The common elements of Christian community in the New Testament are: worship, fellowship, edification, and encounter. If those elements are happening in a gathering that meets regularly, then that for me is church (whether it happens on the beach, in cafe, or in the forrest is entirely irrelevent to me).
You list six elements that are very important, but why privilege those six items above what the rest of the New Testament teaches? What about Col. 3:16? What about 1 Cor. 14:26? I could list the rest of the New Testament. For example, my community of faith meets every Sunday night in a building (but not a church building) and we have a meal together. We preach regularly, but not every Sunday night. We worship together regularly, but not every Sunday night. Sometimes, we meet on a Thursday at another venue and then we don’t have a meal, but we pray together or worship together and encourage one another as we encounter God amongst us.
I’m not interested in the outward expression of Church – that can and must adapt and change with the specific cultures and people we’re building with. I’m concerned with the theological vision of community given to us by Scripture which suggests that we must belong to an identifiable community of care, concern and commitment to one another by meeting regularly to participate in worship, fellowship, edification and encounter.
I hope that’s as clear as mudd… 🙂
hey buddy, i think we’re completely missing each other – i think when i write ‘don’t leave church’ people are reading ‘leave church’ – your reply makes sense a lot outside of the fact of you knowing me and knowing [hopefully] my heart for the church – i am part of a sunday congregation and for the most part [except during our time at Simple Way where our life consisted of breaking bread together, daily prayer and reading of NT, OT and psalms, serving the community, worship, fellowship, edification and encounter… so church!] always have been… my passion in life is to see the church become the church [and everyone who is responding to my posts seems to be in these amazing incredible versions of the church where all of this stuff is happening, but my experience of church growing up in the western cape in particular is the majority of people going to a meeting on a sunday and then living lives completely disaffected from the teachings of Jesus, especially when it comes to denying self or looking out for the least of these etc etc [which Jesus i think called – Matthew 7 repeatedly says the majority are not going to ‘get’ this]
you are insisting on the same people gathering regularly – that was always what i was trying to say/allude to as the general rule but with exceptions [as in Paul and others who moved between congregations to encourage, build up, visit etc] but i am saying people meeting in community [largely the same people] but not necessarily in a church building and not necessarily on a sunday.
when i mention the six things i don’t say that is an exclusive list – i was using it to show how some people who tick all the boxes in terms of ‘going to church’ often fall far short in terms of motivation and intention to be ‘doing the stuff of church’ and here are six examples [of which there are many more]
“you must go to church” which a lot of the detractors of Donald Miller have been loudly shouting or pointing at, feels like a lot more of a religious and pharasaical statement than ‘you must be the church’ – i don’t know that there needs to be a choice between the two, but if there was i imagine Jesus leaning heavily towards being the thing [rather than doing it ‘correctly’] – also circumstantially in persecuted countries it is not always possible for people to ‘go to church’ but they still find ways of meeting and doing all the aspects of what church is about, in particular being the body and the bride…
Hey Brett!
This is coming all the way from PE, where I’m part of a church – a group of people who meet in a bigger context on a Sunday and who are part of each other’s lives in smaller contexts during the week, with a mission to make a splash in our city for the glory of Jesus!
I remember you from the articles you used to write for Truth magazine, which I used to sub-edit (back when I was known as Worm). Since then I’ve grown arms and legs and turned into a proper human being 🙂 I always enjoyed your writing, even though it required some serious punctuation editing! We’ve never met, but you always struck me as a really good man who loves God, so I’ve enjoyed reading your blog and seeing what you get up to.
I think there’s a lot of over-correcting happening. It’s a reaction against church systems that have lacked genuine discipleship and the power to transform lives. But when we see something used incorrectly, the answer is not to stop using it. The answer is to use it in the correct way. In many of the arguments encouraging people to pull away from ‘organised’ meetings, what’s neglected is the role that spiritual gifts play when they operate together. So in Ephesians 4, Paul will expain that God gives apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to the body. Why? So that it will be equipped and prepared for works of service. Many of the friends I grew up with have become jaded and cynical about what it means to be the church, and have pulled away not only from genuine relationships with Godly people, but also from corporate meeting times, where the apostolic, prophetic and teaching gifts, for example, should be operating.
Our generation believes that they have to choose: Either structured meetings where the gifts operate, or a more organic, hands-on, practical living out of our faith. But for us believers – the church – it’s both. We grow and mature as we come together and submit ourselves to leadership and the gifts God has given, and we grow and mature as we take the initiative, living this thing out at work, on the streets, in homes.
Even down in PE there are churches who are doing both of these things. Meeting formally, meeting casually, following Godly order and structure, getting our hands dirty, submitting to leaders, serving each other, discipling people into greater maturity, seeing people get born again and have their lives turned around. If we keep our eyes on Jesus and follow the pattern He sets out in His word, we can do this thing. It’s not easy, and we’ve got to really have our heads in the game, but in the strength of the Holy Spirit we can do it.
You’re a good man. I think of you often and have a soft spot for you in my heart. May the Lord lead you guys in all your future plans.
Shaun
ah Shaunworm, so good to see you bro and thankx for taking the time to comment [and get hold of me – brettfish@hotmail.com – i have a question to ask]
ha ha on the punctuation editing – i gots to be free, man… as you can see without your influence i’ve just gone completely wild and off the deep end. but ja, totally appreciated your involvement and also your writing back in the day.
super excited to hear you are part of a church that is doing all that stuff – again, if you are hearing me try to tell people to leave the church, i am completely not [what i am suggesting is that church is not only to be defined in the smallish box way we define it aka that meeting in that place on that day and imagining that Jesus views it as a much bigger thing] – for the most part, the sunday meeting seems to work for most people [which is what it is all about, right? or more hopefully the people work for the sunday thing… but ja, you know what i mean]
when the church is being the church that just completely makes me happy and i wish people would share more stories online of that happening and being…
yeah, reading your stuff i imagine we are pretty much completely on the same page – as with other Sean who i am best friends with [and tag team preaching buddies often] we are also closely on the same page – i do feel like some of what i am trying to get across is maybe not happening clearly enough but i think it fits within your ‘both… and’ framework and i absolutely agree – what i am tired of it churches where people come and are entertained or maybe participate somewhat in the entertainment and then go home and don’t like Christ-following lives which for me makes the sunday meeting [for them] a bit of a joke or hypocracy and i imagine Jesus would have strong words for them [but perhaps i am being too judgemental of church in which case maybe Jesus will have strong words for me?]
i love church, but for me church is first and foremost a body and a bride – as in a living organism – which has to be so much bigger than a meeting – if church is exclusively defined as only what happens when people gather and not what happens in those peoples’ lives when they are away from each other, then i think we are seriously missing the point…
rock on man and thankx for taking time to write and say some nice things about me too
strength in Him
love brett fish
Thanks for sharing Brett! I couldn’t agree more!
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