…and the discussion continues seeking out a Christ-following version of dating and relationships that is more effective than the model we have simply been borrowing from the world – beginning with a renewing of your mind and refusing to conform any longer to the pattern of this world.
Somebody asked the question – what if we have already crossed the line physically with someone or some ones?
There are two very important points to hear on this one:
[1] God is full of grace and love and that is freely available when we take responsibility for our past and when we confess our sins and invite Him to bring freedom, restore purity and grant forgiveness. “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” [Romans 8.1] So if you are living with condemnation and guilt, then something is definitely wrong. Go to God. Deal with it with Him, and move on.
[2] Having said that, the church often gets it wrong in terms of our definition and understanding of God’s grace and Love because at no time does it cancel out His justice. Love and justice always work together alongside each other. But in the name of niceness (rather than Truth) the church has created this concept of “Second Virginity” which is the idea that when you confess your sins you can become a virgin again. It is a nice concept, but it is just not true. Once you have had sex with someone, your virginity is gone and that is a consequence you need to live with. God forgives and restores and will deal with all condemnation and guilt, but you cannot be made a virgin again.
There is a big difference between sin and consequences. I am reminded of one of my friends who slept with her boyfriend and got pregnant. Does God forgive her sin if she asks Him to? Absolutely. Did God remove the consequences? Not at all. She has a son – who is an amazing kid, we’re not disputing that [Romans 8.31 reminds us that God can bring good out of all situations] – but at that moment all her dreams and ideas for her life and situation changed completely. She can be forgiven the sin, but some of the consequences stick around.
So if you have crossed the line physically and messed up there is hope for you in terms of forgiveness and grace and being able to let go of condemnation and guilt. If it is your current dating person then it is important that you speak about it directly and put things in place that will protect you from the temptation to mess up there again. Having accountability with an outside Jesus-following person who is of the same gender as you is a highly recommendable thing.
And i have to say it again but this topic of dating better requires an absolute renewing of our minds. We need to think differently. We need to enter into dating relationships with an awareness of the dangers of sexual attraction/temptation and have some principles in place to protect us from going there.
[For the next part on Joy and Serving one another in love, click here]
brett, i suppose you right in the idea of nicety the church has made up a thing called: “second virginity.” that doesn’t exist?
BUT I am thinking… yes there are consequences. and God does forgive us sin. But once He has forgiven the sin. (say in the case of someone sleeping with someone in the wrong context)… How does God see them? “Oh, I forgave you, but you’re the guy or girl who lost their virginity.”
same in the case of a murderer: “Oh, i forgave you, but you are a murderer.”
I think God doesn’t keep onto the stigmas. God wants to give each of us a “new heart” (that Ezekiel passage?).
just a thought. I once heard someone say: “God chooses to FORGET our wrongdoings”
that’s kinda cool!
Hm Darrel, you say “But” as if i was saying something other than that…
but i don’t agree with you completely. When God forgives us He forgives us completely and so He views us as if we haven’t sinned [because when He sees us He sees Jesus and what He did and so the appearance of no sin because the sin has been dealt with]
but i don’t think He forgets in the way we see forgetting like with amnesia – He God, did Brett sin? Um no I don’t remember any sin… rather the way i see – which i think is even more incredible – is that although He can remember that i have sinned He treats me as if i have not – so not amenesia but a choosing not to hold my sin against me [because of it having been dealt with] – i find that far more incredible…
Okay yes 🙂 I agree with how you said it. makes a lot of sense. Thanks 🙂
that is incredible. I think the problem with a lot of us, as God’s children… take God’s forgiveness but we battle to forgive ourselves. we hold it against ourselves for way too long. and I sense God would want to scream (in a loving way) to us and say: “Can’t you see how I see you? Stop being so self destructive in your look on your life.”
How do we forgive ourselves is a good question man. How do we?
Regarding the virginity thing. What do you make of men who take many wives? They can only be virgin to one of them.
Then last question. Are you not making a great big deal about this virginity thing? Say you and your wife ever divorced or one of you died. After a few years you or her meet someone else who is a fantastic Jesus follower. Would you be happy for your wife and would she in turn be happy should you meet someone else? Would not being a virgin matter that much if the couple is greatly in love? If Val were not a virgin or you not, then would love each other any less? Say she was already married, had made a mistake, or was even raped? As you were a virgin, you put more emphasis on the importance of it. People who are not downplay the importance. Hunan nature to play the hand you got.
Any ideas?
hey Sally
thankx for your comment – a bunch of good questions there
how do we forgive ourselves? can be a tough one depending on what we’ve done i guess – but i believe that power comes through God and especially as a result of seeing how easily He forgives us and extends grace – if someone else can forgive us, how can we not forgive ourselves?
i don’t believe that taking wives is right [or even sane] – i love my wife but she really does need a lot of my focus and attention and time and i cannot imagine trying to split that and add that to another person or persons, someone will miss out so i think it is largely selfish and unfair to take more than one [there are a bunch of people in the Bible – old testament – who had more than one wife and i don’t understand it, altho i do note how it led to trouble in pretty much every case]
i think with the virginity thing you are asking a bunch of different questions that are not necessarily linked in terms of being the same thing. if either of us died i would imagine we would be very happy if the other one found a new partner and if you are marrying someone whose partner has died then the assumption would be they are not a virgin and you would go into it knowing that – also there is a huge difference between if val had been raped and if she had chosen to have sex with another guy before she got married – and if either had happened then i trust i would have had enough grace to really not vare, BUT because she actively chose to stay a virgin and not give herself to someone else in any way [she had never even kissed a guy before me] that meant an incredible lot more to me and made the whole thing a lot more special and also told me a lot about her character…
Some people have higher libido then others. I read that some people are not that interested in sex much. Others are very much into it. Probably lots to do with your hormones and psychology.
Now for a woman to get to 23 without even kissing a guy, how is that possible? All women I’ve ever met have at least kissed guys before. Is it through lack of libido, disinterest in the opposite sex, or maybe too high expectations or just being unapproachable to guys?
I’m not saying it’s wrong, but am amazed at how one can control their drives like that. Is it a case of mind over body? If so then I’m very impressed that she has a strong mind.
Sometimes it feels good to lose control and go with the moment. For example at a party, you may meet a really hot girl then go for it. How would I hold back if a hot gorgeous girl came onto me at a party? There would be no reason to hold back, as I don’t get that type of thing happening to me that often to he honest. It has before, and I went for it. I didn’t fool myself into thinking it would be a longterm thing though. But was fun at the time.
So I wonder how a healthy young girl can control herself so easily? Is it through lack of temptation or through an iron will? The same with you, you remained a virgin until 37. How did you manage this? Did you turn many women down? How did you develop such control over your instincts?
When you were single, were there lots of opportunities? If so, how did you control such basic urges? Did you just not think about it? Did you avoid situations where hot women were drinking and partying? How do you develop this will of steel? I know I cannot resist when hot student women come up to me on the dancefloor at clubs. The look so good, smell good and it drives me crazy. I cannot resist! Should I just avoid these places? If I do then I get bored and lonely. I enjoy being amongst the action.
How important is sex in a relationship. I’ve heard of many who used to do the deed often when they first go out and get married, but after a few years, it drops off to say once a week or once a month. It’s almost like if it’s forbidden then it’s more of a thrill and becomes more regular.
hey zane
thankx for your thorts – for me it was a case of different priorities and understanding of relationships i guess – i certainly could have gone out and found me some sex if that was my intention but i have always viewed sex as an incredible thing and always wanted to save myself for that special person – i had other boundaries in relationships which i went over at times and wish i’d held to a bit more but fortunately i was able to keep to that one – i think society has very much desensitised us when it comes to relationships [just like violence – when you witness your first death on the news it is hectic but now if we hear of a worldwide tragedy we go “oh well at least only 1000 people died” which is horrific – each person who dies should gut us] and so if you kiss a girl every opportunity you get then soon enough it will mean nothing much – but if even kissing remains special to you [as it did and does to me] then every time it happens it is an event and it is incredible and any girl i kissed before i got married [only three girls that i dated] knew that it was a special thing reserved for them whereas if i picked up a different girl in a club every week then it would have soon become meaningless…
so it’s having an idea early on what your priorities are and what boundaries you set and what you want to save for the special person and the concept of even having a special person – some of these concepts are quite simple to me but i imagine a whole lot of them come across as quite revolutionary to people who have never lived that way – but you go for a year without kissing a girl and i guarantee you the next girl you kiss after that, kissing will be phenomenal again especially if done in the context of relationship and not just something you can easily get
as far as i am concerned i don’t really dig the club scene so much altho i have friends who do who also think the same way i do and my wife sued to hit the clus and dance floors a bunch before we met and still managed to keep to her ideals – sometimes it’s easy, sometimes it’s really not but it is doable cos if it were not we would just be animals acting on impulse, but one of the differences with humans is we can make the choices, we can decide to put greater emphasis on one thing over another and we can fight and win over temptation… and yeah i don’t drink too much either which also helps keep your senses sharp which helps good decision making.
sex is important in a married relationship but it is not the be all and end all as society has largely made it out to be.
also it is about treating women with respect and respecting their dignity and purity and refusing to be the temptation they have to fight against… it really is possible
as a Christ-follower i have a huge advantage though because the Holy Spirit who lives in me empowers me to make the right choices – i sometimes fight against them and give in to my stubborness and pride and selfishness and so on so it doesn’t mean i get it right all the time by any means but it means i have greater resources to when i need to – and having a strong friendship group around me of people who have my back also helps – together we look after each other and the girls we are friends with and so we end up with the potential for amazing relationships where that stuff has been saved for where it really is meaningful…
Thanks for that complete response. It would be nice if more people lived in this way and it was more widespread. It’s funny how we all go along different paths and more often than not end up at the same place. Some don’t I guess. I wonder why some have it so easy with women and some gave it so hard.
Temptation is very difficult to overcome. I admire those who do overcome it. Did you find much trouble resisting temptation when you were single? Or did you rather try to avoid temptation in the first place?
You are a decent looking guy so you were probably tempted a lot. The same for Val as she is a pretty girl. So I admire your strong wills. I am going to try avoid places like clubs as it seems to be mostly physical with alcohol causing mixed signals and loss of control.
I have a great idea. You should write a column for the newspapers to reach more young people. I’m 22 and often struggle with temptation. I have not gone all the way yet, but close.
Yo! Well I can say. Even tho temptation is difficult to overcome, thru the absolute bigness and goodness of God u can overcome. I was once living in a place of sin, after I got saved. So I was saved and living in continual sin (won’t go into detail) and I thort I wud never never overcome. I felt defeated and I was almost just accepting that this is hw I wud live the rest of my life. Fall in sin. Ask forgiveness. Fall in sin. Feel guilty. Ask forgiveness. Fall in sin. Feel so guiltyt. Ask forgiveness. Fall again etc etc ask forgiveness. but be encouraged Zane and readers, that there is VICTORY in Christ Jesus. He has showed me and lead me into this Victory. I am free of that which I thort I wud never b free of! Jesus is Victoroius and its up2 us tp choose Him continually because HIS heart is that we wud be walking in complete freedom and victory. That’s the heart of God. He is love. He is Victorious and He triumphs over all things.
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