So i think i have a different understanding and idea of church than a number of people i know.
And my picture of what church is feels a lot bigger, rather than smaller, than some other peoples. i am not saying that the Sunday church local congregation vibe is not church, but i am suggesting that maybe it is more than that.
One example for me has always been so-called ‘para-church’ organisations like Scripture Union and Youth With a Mission. Kingdom-focused people doing kingdom-focused things. How is that not the church? It fits in with both the ‘bride of Christ’ and the ‘body of Christ’ metaphors that Jesus used to describe His church.
Yet, for a whole lot of people, if you are not attending a meeting at that particular place on that particular day [which must be a Sunday, by the way] then you are on some kind of a slippery slope and should be very careful.
Something like that. And while people we know would probably not quite put it in those words, there is a strong sense of ‘Not Alrightness’ when people hear you are not attending a local church.
“We must pray for the Andersons.”
The beautiful Val [tbV] and myself went to visit a church yesterday morning. And on the way home we were chatting and really interested in the idea that ‘This’ [our morning experience] ‘is the thing people are very concerned we become a part of.’
i wrote a piece recently on how we [as christians] have far too often gotten caught up in majoring on the minors, while neglecting or sometimes skipping completely the things God seems to think are majors.
WHAT CONCERNS YOU, CONCERNS ME
For example, there are literally thousands of verses in the Bible that talk about the poor and our attitude and action towards them, the fact that to Jesus, having some kind of outreach or relationship or investment with the poor seemed to be a big deal.
There are not thousands of verses talking about being part of a local congregation and giving them ten percent of your money.
Yet, which of those two get church-going-people freaked out when they are not happening?
That’s right. We are more than okay with attending a meeting once a week with a majority of people who have absolutely no engagement with the poor at all [beyond the ten percent we throw in the bag, box, tin as it goes past because then job done, conscience cleansed, someone will now be looking after the poor with that money, slash paying the church electricity bill] but panic stations when someone we know who professes to love Jesus, are not in regular attendance.
So first of all, i think it is imperative to figure out what are the things God is wanting us to major on, to prioritise, to make essential in our lives and to make sure we are doing those, and then to fill in whatever gaps may appear around those with everything else.
And secondly, before you get too concerned that tbV and i have ‘not found a church yet’, look at yourself in the mirror and then at those who sit next to you at church and through the lens of giving-to-the-poor see if you should be more concerned about that. Then continue to pray for us.
WHAT IS THIS CHURCH YOU WANT ME TO BE A PART OF?
A lot of this is stuff i have covered in my book which i am furiously working towards self-publishing. So watch this space or something.
The service we visited yesterday was not particularly our style. One of the things we spoke about as we drove home was, ‘Is THAT the thing people are so concerned we are a part of?’
And so this is my genuine question [and i’d love it if you would take a few minutes and leave an answer in the comments section cos i really am interested in how you would answer this question], what exactly is this church you want me to be a part of?
When tbV and i were part of the Simple Way community in Philly, we had morning prayer times [with a group of gathered people]five times a week where each time we read a passage from the Old Testament, one from the New Testament, a Psalm, sang a song together, read some liturgy together and had an open time of praying for whatever was on our heart. Our weekly ‘work’ was largely serving those in the community around us [so trying to love our neighbours well].
In fact, when i talk about it to other people, i usually conclude by saying, ‘the only thing we missed in terms of regular congregational church services was corporate worship’ – singing together in a group. Which i am not now even convinced is the way tbV or i would particularly primarily choose to worship God. [There is not a lot of space or patience or understanding in the church for those who don’t particularly like to sing – typically it is met with a suck-it-up-this-is-the-only-way-to-really-worship-God attitude].
So please tell me, before you let me know my views on church are wrong or how important it is that we are part of a local church, what does that mean? What exactly is the thing you are wanting me to be a part of?
DESPERATELY SEEKING CHURCHING
tbV and i have visited a few church services since being back [as people have invited us] and i definitely have Common Ground Wynberg on my list for the next free Sunday we have cos that sounds like a great mix of people. But we haven’t been panic’d about it. We are in a period of transition where we don’t even know where we are going to be living yet and so committing to a group of people in an area far off from where we land doesn’t seem like the most sensible of things.
So on the one hand, not desperate in terms of ‘Must. Find. A. Church.’
But on the other had, we chatted about it during the same conversation and both agreed that we are not happy with our current state of non-regular-community as an ongoing thing. We both realise and acknowlege that gathering is good. That breaking bread together feels essential. That journeying with a specific group of people can be really helpful.
i do imagine however, that neither of us would be too concerned if that did not happen on a Sunday. Regular gathering with a group of Jesus-following people on a different day of the week feels like it might be okay to us. [Runs to check bible]
i also imagine that not meeting in a church building would be okay with us. And probably more than okay. I imagine if we were given the choice of church building or home or pub on the corner or coffee shop that church building would probably come in 4th. Jesus spent time in the Temple. Absolutely. But He also spent probably a lot more of His time churching outside of the official building – in boats and on hillsides and at dinner tables and at wells.
i have a deep hunger for the Word of God [the bible] – understanding it better and knowing it more and so whether by myself or with other people, i imagine that will likely always be an important part of what we do. Wrestling with the words and actions of Jesus and the early church and how they often look so different from ours. Engaging with the Scripture as opposed to merely having it spoken at us. [This feels like a definite area the local church would do well to have transformation in, although it would require a LOT of work and would more than likely be EXTREMELY messy, which is perhaps why we stick to man at the front giving the message and no or little space for questions or push-back or engagement].
i want to see people brought into relationship with God. i really don’t feel like i have a gift of evangelism and think actually that i am particularly bad at it [although every now and then God manages to use me anyways] but i believe that it is important and want to see it happen and am not convinced that a Sunday meeting in a church building is the best place for those outside of the church to be brought near [because the stuff we do when we get together is PRETTY WEIRD to those not used to it – think singing and arm-raising and dipping tiny pieces of cracker into pretend wine which we refer to as blood and so on]. But around a dinner table might be, or in a lounge where an intentional conversation has been initiated and so on.
And so on.
Do i think Sunday church gathering in that particular building is church? Absolutely [as long as it is much bigger than just that hour and a half meeting – if that is all your churching is, then you need the prayer] – if the Sunday gathering does not inform or empower the rest of your week experience and your whole life, in fact, then i seriously think you need to rethink that area of your life.
But bigger than that, i see ‘the church’ as a singular entity made up of smaller and larger church congregations and what we call para-church organisations [a horrible name, cos they are not outside of/separate from the church] who are the gathering people of God working together for His kingdom things. Or more simply the people of God doing God stuff together.
i absolutely don’t think it is healthy or even biblical to be a ‘christian-without-church’ because God definitely calls us to do His stuff together. But i also do understand why so many people have walked away from traditional sunday church services as the expression of the only way church can be.
We are the bride of Christ, not the harem.
We are the body of Christ, not the bodies of Christ.
There really only is one church, although many smaller expressions of how that plays out.
i think, when we truly understand what church is all about, then it will become the question of Monday to Saturday, rather than Sunday, ‘Are you going to church today?’ [where church is a verb, rather than a noun of place]. Are you going to be being the body of Jesus and the bride of Christ to all of those who you encounter this day?
i would absolutely LOVE to hear your thoughts and response on this one… [be gentle]
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Pastor Jesse Johson provides the following:
Is it possible to live a faithful Christian life without being a faithful part of a local church? I’ve heard many people make the argument that it is indeed possible—especially if there are no good churches around. I disagree.
At the bare minimum, there are forty different commands in the New Testament to live life in some sense with other believers. While certainly it is possible to do some of these with Christians in general, the weight of this list should convince you of the necessity of having on going relationships with other believers.
And those relationships are only strengthened by the fellowship of the local church. In fact, I submit that some of this list is simply impossible to obey if you do not have the kind of ongoing and ever increasing fellowship with other believers that only comes through ministry in a local church:
1. Stimulate one another to love and good deeds (Heb 10:24 )
2. Confess your sins to one another (James 5:16 )
3. Build up one another (1 Thess 5:11 )
4. Be of the same mind as one another (Romans 12:13 , 15:5 )
5. Comfort one another in the face of death (1 Thess 4:18 )
6. Employ your spiritual gifts in serving one another (1 Peter 4:10 )
7. Pray for one another (James 5:16 )
8. Be devoted to one another (Romans 12:10 )
9. Be at peace with one another (Mark 9:50 )
10. Encourage one another (1 Thess 5:11 )
11. Greet one another (2 Cor 13:12 )
12. Don’t become boastful in challenging one another (Gal 5:26 )
13. Be kind to one another (Eph 4:32 )
14. Abound in love for one another (1 Peter 1:22 )
15. Live in peace with one another (1 Thess 5:13 )
16. Love one another (2 John 5)
17. Fervently love one another (1 Peter 1:22 )
18. Have fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7 )
19. Don’t judge one another (Romans 14:13 )
20. Take communion (the Lord’s Table) with one another (1 Cor 11:33 )
21. Accept one another (Romans 15:7 )
22. Regard one another as more important than yourself (Phil 2:3 )
23. Bear one another’s burdens (Gal 6:2 )
24. Admonish one another (Rom 15:14 )
25. Serve one another (Gal 5:13 )
26. Do not lie to one another (Col 3:9 )
27. Bear with one another (Col 3:13 )
28. Forgive one another (Col 3:13 )
29. Teach and admonish one another (Rom 15:14 )
30. Care for one another (1 Cor 12:25 )
31. Cloth yourselves with humility toward one another (1 Peter 5:5 )
32. Be hospitable to one another (1 Peter 4:9 )
33. Do not complain against one another (James 5:9 )
34. Show forbearance to one another (Eph 4:2 )
35. Speak to one anther in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs (Eph 5:19 )
36. Give preference to one another (Rom 12:10 )
37. Don’t bite and devour one another (Gal 5:15 )
38. Submit to one another (Ephesians 5:21
39. Seek the good of one another (1 Thess 5:15 )
40. Don’t forsake assembling with one another (Heb 10:25 )
That last one brings the whole list full circle. If being a Christian means nothing more than making a decision about Jesus Christ,than none of this matters. But if being a Christian means stepping into a life altering world, where God desires your sanctification and gives you the means to grow and the commands to follow, then it is simply impossible to do that outside of the context of a local church.
(found at http://thecripplegate.com/40-reasons-to-be-part-of-a-local-church/)
I hope this helps…
Thanks for stopping by and for the contents.
I’m not convinced that you are understanding where I am coming from in terms of what I am asking. I am certainly not refuting any of the things on that list. But I am asking for a clear understanding of what you mean by local church. Does the meeting together have to happen on a Sunday? Does it have to be in a church type building? If not, then what makes it by definition local church? In so many Sunday meetings that take place in church building I see a lot of the list you have given missing. There is often a lack of fellowship as people arrive, are sung at (cos a lot of people these days don’t seem to be doing much of the singing), preached at (no engagement or wrestling with the word, it is usually a one man show) and then leave. Communion is rarely breaking bread and drinking wine together around a meal in remembrance of Jesus. And so on.
The end of your answer seems to assume I am saying that being a Christian means nothing more than making a decision about Jesus Christ which makes me think you may not have read my post at all, cos I was completely not saying that. What I am suggesting is that in many ways what we view as church is a whole lot of tradition we have simply accepted because that is all we have ever known and were introduced to, a lot of which does not resemble a lot of what appears on that list you copied here.
I think God’s desire for church is so much more. I hope so anyway.
My other main point was that you indicated 45 points about being connected to local church. I can direct you to roughly 2000 that speak of the need for our involvement with the poor. Why is it that a pastor seems way more concerned that a person is not seen as part of a local church than he is that a member of his local church might not be engaging with the poor. That concerns me and suggests our priorities might be out of wack.
Yes. I did read your entire post and I think my answer sufficiently covers your questions. In answer to your questions
A local church is one where you:
go to regularly for Sunday worship (corporate singing, giving, sermon, prayer,etc is all worship)
go to regular growth/cell/bible studies
know the pastor and the elders (at least by name and can greet them and ask how it is going)
serve in some capacity (usher/music/some ministry/etc.)
If you find the attitude of the people serving there to be superficial then find someplace else. Empty worship is empty worship and God does not like that (e.g. Cain)
What the end of the post says is exactly what it says. Read it carefully “…being a Christian means stepping into a life altering world, where God desires your sanctification and gives you the means to grow and the commands to follow, then it is simply impossible to do that outside of the context of a local church.”
I find this to be true as I am one who left the church (was not saved while I was there but I thought I could score points with God if I go) and was radically saved. I can attest to the fact that an integral part of my Christianity is the Sunday corporate worship along with my personal bible study and other small group studies.
As to part 2 of your reply:
Jesus sat with the poor and the sinners (Pharisees, lepers, etc.) and even rich “good” people. I cannot think for one moment that Jesus was concerned with class distinctions. He loved the rich young ruler as much as the leper and the Samaritan woman.
The question is: what did he tell them while sitting with the poor? Repent.
Jesus fed the 5000 not because he was concerned with their hunger but because He had compassion on them. His main concern was their salvation through Him.
Just because a theme is repeated 2000 times in the bible does not mean it gets a rating above other injustices and/or issues. The whole OT points to Jesus as the messiah! That is the overarching theme.
My point is this. As Christians our compassion is for the poor and the marginalised (but also for the rich middle class who don’t need Christ because they have money to worship). That is what Jesus demonstrated: service and sacrifice. But eradicating poverty is not our main agenda. It is part of it; but not the primary one. Our main charge is to preach Christ crucified and resurrection and the forgiveness of sins because we cannot save ourselves.
If your local church does not have a ministry for the poor that you feel called towards than why don’t you start a ministry to the poor?
Ps. Did Jesus not also say that the poor wil always be with us (Matt 26:11 and in v13 “Truly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her.”). I know you don’t build a theology from one verse but this does highlight the priority of Jesus’ ministry
Thanks for your time Jesse and for some clarification.
However, i still am not sure what brings you to the conclusion that it mus be on a Sunday and in that particular place…
I have been in an evening church service where there were less than ten people and in a home group where there were more than twenty. So it can’t be the numbers?
I have been in churches where the sermons have been awful and completely unhelpful or even not quite biblical and i have been in home group meetings and even just gatherings with friends where the teaching of scripture have been opened up so effectively and in a way that builds, encourages and strengthens. So it can’t be the preaching?
Prayer and giving and serving and knowing people by name [i would say that is one thing that huge church services are quite inadequate in] can all happen in intentional gatherings with other people who love Jesus and commit to meeting regularly.
What i am trying to understand is what makes a group of people who meet regularly [say in a home] and commit to doing all the things you mentioned above [worship together, prayer, reading of scripture, serving, reaching the least of these] not church? Just because it doesn’t happen on a Sunday? Because it doesn’t happen in a church building? Because someone isn’t ordained? That is the question i don’t feel you have answered for me. [and don’t get me wrong, before we left for Americaland i was pastoring an evening congregation of a Vineyard for 6 years and have just come off a year of being a youth pastor at Re:Generation church in Oakland] – i am not someone who is not part of a local congregation trying to justify why that’s okay – i am someone who has spent more of my life linked closely to church and more often than not working for/in a church or volunteering in some direct way. I am speaking from the inside out, not the other way.
In terms of the poor thing, i would suggest that Matthew 25 sheep and goats as well as various threads through scripture indicate that this is a big deal for God, not at the expense of people coming to salvation but maybe as a demonstration in their lives that salvation has happened…
Strength
Brett Fish
Hi Brett Fish
Odd name. Call me Brett Hare then. You just showed that you did not even read the original post because I was quoting Jesse Johnson (link given at the bottom). I am not Jesse. I am just another anonymous troll with an opinion. My opinion is that God decides what church should look like. Pastor Jesse Johnson (whom I quoted) was diligent enough to go look in the Bible what church should look like and kindly provided 40 reasons (not 45) as to what God says.
You can have your church on what ever day you want. It’s practical to have it on Sunday and it originated from Paul and the Apostles not wanting to offend the Jews back in the day. If you live in some other country where they have weekend on Friday and Saturday (UAE) then your church will most probably meet on a Saturday. As for bad (un-biblical) preaches: RUN away from them if they occur on a regular basis. Nobody can be strengthened through a twisting of God’s word. Home churches are biblical (see the Roman soldier in Acts). As for un-ordained pastors; I would personally stay away from any preacher that cannot at least read biblical Greek. But that’s just me. On a practical point; try and get families to go to church during the week (or even Saturday) with kids, homework and school sport and the other things happening…good luck with that (if you have kids you will know what I mean). Its not happening. Sundays are a lot easier.
But hey, you can do church whichever way you like. Did God really say that we should actually have a church? And who was this Paul guy who went around establishing churches (in the name of God) and then writing to them when they did not follow the way he taught them (1 Cor) and then writing to them again because they repented from their ways (2 Cor)? The nerve! Was that really necessary ? Yes I am sarcastic; but for to make a point. There are core elements that make a church. God says so in the bible and that is what matters.
Over and out. You are welcome to have the last word. Good luck. I hope you find a good biblical church that lives out most of the list…regardless of the day or the location.
Actually, i leave links to my stuff on comments all the time. If you can’t even engage with your own name and have to use cut/paste answers then it doesn’t really suggest too much thinking on your own. And answers like ‘God says so in the bible and that is what it means’ suggest that we don’t use interpretation when we look at scripture which would possibly suggest all churches would end up looking the same and not as diverse as catholic/protestant and all the ones on the protestant scale from charismatic to liberal to conservative. The point is we do need to interpret and wrestle with and try and understand what the bible is saying which is what i have done and what i am doing. Core elements that make up a church? That is the question i am asking and so fr you have not really answered them beyond a cut/paste which i haven’t seen applicable in a lot of sunday church congregations that you would call church and have at times seen more so in ones you would probably not. Take a note from the book of the Bereans in Acts who took any message they heard and checked it with scripture and made sure it was true. i am doing the same with what i see on Sundays and asking [yes, asking questions, not saying i have arrived at all of the answers by any means, just hoping to engage with people who are okay with people who ask questions and don’t just accept things at face value] if it is what is in the bible or just the tradition we have inherited.
To re-post what I put in facebook… here’s my start to answer your question:
http://abnormalanabaptist.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/reinventing-church-dutch-style/
If your question is as specific as “church on Sunday?” I’d respond with “meh”. Sabbath was made for man, not man for sabbath.
Diving deeper into the question:
1) Regular weekly sabbath is probably necessary. We humans have limitations and need regular recharging.
2) Worship is implied to be restful and recharging. Though it is certainly true that much of what people call worship is neither of those things.
3) Corporate worship is as equally important or more important than private worship. There is very little individualism in the bible and we humans need each other. People who say they can go it alone are probably doing it wrong.
3a) worship is more than singing. The etymology is worth-ship. Ascribing value to the thing worth-shipped. Much bigger than just singing.
3b) nearly all children sing. what happens to change children from singing to not singing?
3c) technically, bible-lecture time (preaching) can also be called worship, though historically this was known as proclamation and not the “teaching” that so many churches do today.
3c1)the teaching that is done in preaching is a really bad form of teaching. Humans do not learn from lectures. Why do we keep doing this?
Conclusion? A communal sabbath and a communal worship are needed to be healthy. I don’t think that “going to church” necessarily meets these requirements.
Huge cheers Al [is it?] – agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here – am NOT saying we shouldn’t be meeting or learning or worshipping, just challenging the current methods when held up as the only ways it can be done! i feel like you get that…
love brett fish
I am not well educated in the traditional sense post school education. Now, as for the University of Hard knocks, it is there I have been capped many times.
Thank you Brett for so eloquently stripping this down for me. Your current experience has been part of my own experience and I could not have explained myself half as well as you have in your verbalising all the facets of what church is (or not) in our case.
My life with Jesus started out miraculously. I landed and was “saved” in a church where I believe was the place God reached into my life, grabbed me, shook me, and started changing me. It was and always will be a place of dear people though I changed and changed since then, the level of dearness has also changed as I have grown. My next church experience was the most beautiful for me at the time because it was exactly what I needed for god to allow me to UN-do all the stuff that didn’t matter and which had caused so many questions between us. That “growth” as I see it looking back was preparation for the next phase of my life, the spiritual strength of which was to see me through many more and much deeper life potholes.
We left that place and came to this which Ihave and continue to refer to as the hillbilly heart of the country. It goes without saying that church is done very differently here. It felt as if I was in a timewarp – things had regressed to culture so very different I was surprised to find it existed still. So we UN-churched ourselves by choice rather than face every Sunday with criticisms of “can you believe they still do that”, to “we can’t go backwards” to the realisation that you can’t have an influence on something that is so unchangeable except by god of course. Life took some very harsh turns in coping with illness, financial insecurity and then death of a lifelong partner to grief loss pain and more uncertainty. Some may say “you see what happens when you don’t go to church”, or you are not a “good enough” Christian and God is disciplining you. Or,”you didn’t pray enough” amongst many other hard to process comments that came from what I think are well meaning hearts and believers. What must “unbelievers” feel? Sad. Abandoned. Forgotten. Unaccepted. Outcast.
Well through all of this one thing I can attest to is that god never leaves us. I am important to Him. He will take me to the next phase of my life with Him. Its hard to be a Christian when you live in isolation. I don’t believe that God ever turns his attention away from me because I am not a rule follower. In fact, the darkest moments of my life were sustained by Him. He always filled me with courage, hope (in spite of feeling helpless and hopeless). That sounds like my God. I have since found a lovely “church family” its far from where I live but when I walk in the doors I feel Him there. Hard to explain, but true. When we worship together He becomes the focus. When I look around me I see all His people from all works of life and the community. Its not perfect and I only attend when I can afford to but there is a man at the top that I feel I have some common bond with that should I need to I can call him up and I know I could have a nice coffee catch up over all the disturbing, albeit beautiful, life challenges. For that I m grateful.
Stay true to who you are, which is a unique expression of God’s love and work for you. I believe that everyday is my chance to be the person He would be proud of. I do want to hang my head in shame many times when I can’t or don’t live up to that standard but I know that I know He cares. The rest is so influenced and affected by the beautiful beings He brings into my space.I can only try to sift through it all.
Carry on regardless you will find your place
Thank you so much Joan for taking the time to stop by and share. Really appreciate the word and the heart behind them. If only everyone to time to critique where they are and what they are a part of or have signed up for. The world might be a completely different place.