You know, the whole, ‘Before you criticise someone, walk a mile in their shoes’ thing?
Following on from the post and conversation relating to inequality at the moment still being a race thing in South Africa, what might be a helpful activity is to take a look at how you understand the other person’s argument.
Are you able to jump into the comments and comment from the point of view of the person on the other side of the argument. So, as a white guy, can i comment as if i am a black guy [in terms of point of view] on the whole issue of reconciliation, land redistribution and equality within South Africa [and Americans, can you do this with your whole #Ferguson #BlackLivesMatter conversation]?
eg. Because my grandparents were evicted from their land and forced to move into a less than favourable location, i feel that it is only fair for me to have the opportunity to return to where they originally lived and be given land there.
In terms of the Americaland situation it would be something more like:
eg. I am tired of explaining to my child why he should not wear his hoodie when he goes out at night.
It is clear from some of the conversations that have been happening on the blog and on Facebook that there is a lot of fear, insecurity and mistrust around a number of these issues and i’m wondering if taking a moment to articulate the other person’s argument [you don’t have to full agree with them or believe it, but just seeing if you get it] might help each of us to see better where they are coming from and understand their point of view.
i realise this is a little risky, but i think it could be valuable. Anyone willing to give it a try? Simply take one aspect of the argument or conversation so far and articulate it as if you were bringing it from the other point of view.
Or as Jack Handey puts it, ‘Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes.’
Why? God chose us to be in whatever situation we are in. So why not accept it? Blacks have other priorities like having large families. I have always said, if you can’t feed em, don’t breed em! It sounds harsh to some, but please explain why I must work harder and be forced to pay grants to those who will 99 percent of the time never succeed or contribute. Isn’t that parasitic? Yes there are white losers also receiving grants. They all live as parasites off the working people. Explain? Why must I be forced into slavery for grant seekers?
i don’t think you have the smallest idea of what you’re talking about and until you are willing to engage honestly with the conversation and at least try to see beyond your tainted worldview where your privileged position is looked after at the expense of many who didn’t have the same advantage as you from the start, i am not going to allow you to further dirty up my blog with your racist musings.
Why not let us argue? If we can sort it out here it will go a long way to helping as millions share the same mindset. Deleting comments will not help. It is the last resort of someone who cannot debate with logic and reason. Let us reason.
There is inequality in nature. You do not see a lion feeding a sheep. You do not see tiger going to feed a cow.
Why change the laws of nature? If God wanted us all equal, he would have made it so.
Some are born more intelligent. Some are born more athletic. Some are born better looking. Should we all wear paper bags over our heads to be equal?
i welcome healthy debate and “sorting it out here” Chris but when someone shows by their comments that they are not interested in honestly pursuing truth and their comments are continuously racist or distracting to the conversation at hand then it becomes helpful to the conversation with those willing to engage to not clutter up the space with them.
A question for you though – do you have any good friends of colour?
Yes I am not racist. I have a few friends of color. Mainly from Zimbabwe and Congo where they are much more educated and hard working.
I am not racist. I am against the tribal mindset. There is a difference. The tribal mindset can work if everyone is in the same tribe and helping one another. It cannot work when some are doing nothing – sitting around, having babies and then expecting this Ubuntu stuff from the people who are slaving away all day. There will come a point where it cannot be sustained.
I know people from Congo and Zim, and they work in the holidays. They work hard and save. They study. For the most part, the SA masses want as much holiday as possible. They visit shebeens and expect handouts. When the handouts don’t arrive or they are not as much – they commit crime.
Now what is the difference between us all, Zim, Congo, white, Zulu, Xhosa, French, German? Not too much. We are all tribal, or were tribal at some point in history. It takes many centuries to come out of tribalism.
The tribal mindset of work only as much as you need to, then park off is what is causing all these problems. Someone else will feed your kids. Someone else will come clean up your street. Someone else will do whatever. Give me money. There is not enough money and you can only give so much.
There is no racism. It is all about the tribal/ubuntu/communist mindset that does not work when the minority are doing most of the hard work. It can work in Germany for example where only a small percentage of people are unemployed, but not here in SA where about 20 million are not working.
What are your views on:
1. Sterilization after 2 kids? Cash incentive.
2. If you want grants, then you must do some job even cleaning up the streets. Have some pride and get out there with your grant cash and offer a voluntary cleaning service. Go offer to wash someone’s car or mow a lawn or help out. One should not just expect money for nothing. If people could see these grant seekers offering something, mindsets will change very quickly. Its not nice to always have to give, and then get treated as if you are a thief. Our distant ancestors came and conquered. It happens in all cultures.
3. Apartheid did cause problems, but can you say that inequality did not exist in 1652?
1. i think as long as it is applied to everyone and not race specific then that does feel like a helpful solution for many places in the world – many white families have three or more children.
2. I am all up for doing something in exchange for grants – i have not advocated a handout at all in this whole conversation – you and others have brought it up – what i have been talking about is wrongs done in the past [land seizures etc] that were not properly restituted or given reparation for and suggesting that there may be something we still need to do there to put things right.
3. The difference between 1652 and present day is that it was a government system that inflicted unfair and unbalanced circumstances on one [or more] particular group of people simply because of the colour of their skin. We can’t go back to 1652 and change the wrongs committed there but with our more recent and evil history [apartheid was an evil system – do you agree on this?] there is work to be done in terms of us putting right what we messed up [or our parents did] as people who have for the most part benefitted from it having happened.
Hey Jim….How about jumping in and doing something so that families don’t have to nor want to accept grants rather than sitting back an accepting it as status quo and grumbling about giving your money to these people you call “parasites” for some reason? In South Africa….all of us can choose to complain about what we don’t want to do because of how messy things are and try to ignore it in our white bubbles or we could jump in and sort out the mess….I’m thinking the second option will actually get us somewhere.
Naive! How do I find the time?
If it’s a value you have, you will make the time.
I work long hours. I am not a free loading Christian wannabe rasta drifting by.
What a coincidence. Me too.
My solution! When someone has had 2 kids, they should go get sterilized voluntarily and receive a R10k cash. It would reduce wild overpopulation. More money to education, less to mass feeding. Simple. Fair? Yes
Inequality will happen if you are born into a poor family of 7 siblings. This is a good solution to the problem. One that many will regard as taboo, but something that really needs to be looked into. A cash incentive, but only once they have had say 2 or 3 kids.
1. Yes, it should be applied to everyone. Agreed
2. Land seizures. Yes there were a few like district six which should be corrected. But generalized land claims on productive farms that were once deserts and with no title holders prior to apartheid cannot be justified. If land was taken then we need proof of who owned it – fair enough. It should be returned or a portion of it. What about people who have bought houses post 1994? Can someone just make a claim?
3. It doesn’t matter the system. Can you agree that there was inequality as soon as Europeans came off the ships and into contact with blacks? Apartheid was wrong yes, perhaps they could have addressed the problems of existing inequality and culture difference differently than what they did.
Can we agree there was inequality in 1652? Can we agree that its been catch-up ever since for the tribal blacks – most of them anyway?
i’m not sure what you mean by catchup – i think there was difference before but i’m not convinced that everything the colonists brought with them has proved to be completely helpful or good.
Catchup: Iron age culture had to be given an alphabet – written language. They had to learn about mirrors, about farming techniques, about chemistry, medicine, ship building, sewage works, physics, science, mathematics and many more things.
These Xhosa and Zulu were also colonists. They came from the great lakes. Did you know that? They also killed other tribes. No difference.
Do the Greeks blame the Romans? Do the Chinese blame Ghengis Khan? Do the Russians complain about whoever? You see, why is it that when it is blacks, it is always this victim mentality. Like we owe them? Colonialism happens – deal with it. I am really so tired of it always being about “poor blacks”. I am not racist, but it is this type of mindset that makes me want to be. I speak to Congolese guys and they say the blacks here are totally different and non-productive. This is the reason for the problems we have. They seem to live in a constant struggle and victim mentality. Like we are their handlers or keepers and must provide for their poor starving families all the time. It is ridiculous. It is this very entertaining this idea that causes them to be victims.
When you generalise an entire nation with stereotypes and racial slurs, you miss the point completely. I remember, There are some really hardworking black South Africans and some really lazy ones in the same way that there are some really hard-working white South Africans and some really lazy ones. The difference is that it is easier to be a lazy white South African and get away with it because of the privileged position you start in and so relying on parents to pay for you, cover your costs etc. You keep trying to compare two things that are not equal because of their unbalanced starting positions. I am certainly not blaming everything on apartheid but i am saying that just because it is not a politically enforced system any more doesn’t mean everything is equal. It was created to cause/further an unbalanced system and the consequences of that continue to linger and so until those are addressed, the legacy of apartheid has not been properly interrupted. When you speak about black people, it sounds like an issue, but when i am talking about them here i am thinking of people i know and talking about people i care about. If you take the time to build some healthy relationships with some locals from the townships, maybe you will be able to make the shift a little better as well.
2. i really don’t know [and no-one else seems to that i have spoken to] the practical aspects of land reparation/restitution, so really it’s just a question of whether it is necessary at all. But i do know that for a LOT of black people it is THE issue and that means that the rest of us have to take it seriously else it will bite us in the bum. In a big way.
3. i think the two are completely different – don’t think whether or not there was inequality back then makes much of a difference but when a system was created to create inequality and we can do some work to bring about a more balanced society then i believe we have the responsibility to engage with that seriously and see what we can do.
1. It will bite everyone in the bum. It is also a problem if one continues to say they must take land. For example in the western cape, there were no xhosa or zulus living there in 1652. There were Khoi-San. However what makes Xhosas or Zulus of today feel entitled to land claims in Franshoek or Stellenbosch for example? One needs to reason and not fall on the bandwagon of giving in to any demands.
2. The inequality was there in 1652. It was very difficult to change a primitive culture over the next few hundred years. This led to apartheid. Call it systems, circumstance, or whatever – when two vastly different cultures meet, it will take time – sometimes hundreds of years. If the Europeans encountered blacks with the same technology and farming methods, they would probably have hit it off and today there would be no whites or blacks, just coloured people.
It is easy to blame everything on apartheid. Very easy and a cop-out. Apartheid was the result of the inequality that already existed at the time. In the 1940s and 50s, most blacks were completely uneducated and living in mud huts or shacks. They believed in ancestors and killed cows in their back-yards. The inequality was there already! Apartheid made it worse I agree, but at least the apartheid government spent money on education for the blacks, schools and hospitals were built for them.
i’m not sure you understand the history with statements like “at least the apartheid government sent money on education for the blacks, schools and hospitals were built for them’ – certainly not equal to the education and healthcare which the white population received…
In those days, the blacks were well educated for their current position in life. They were struggling with white language. They didn’t have an alphabet. It was whites who had to learn Xhosa and Zula and create an alphabet. There were not enough white teachers to go around to teach them their own language.
They were basically living in the same conditions as before the whites arrived. Before they had no education, and after they had some. Before they had no healthcare and after they had some. The whites had to look after themselves first and then look after the blacks, but there were not enough whites to do it all – they also had to live life.
It is easy to pass blame, but you have not walked a mile in the shoes of someone like Verwoerd. He was a highly educated man who did not take these decisions lightly. In contrast to the ANC of today who don’t even care about their own people. The education for blacks today is of a lower standard than the education in apartheid.
I am just trying to fit myself on chris’ shoes
That is great. Let us hear arguments from black people as to what they would have done differently had they been Europeans stepping off the ships in those days.
There have been many arguments regarding IQ as a factor. I can’t say for sure if it is, however assuming these arguments were correct and blacks did have a lower IQ, then would that be a reason for inequality? Assuming it were the case – play devil’s advocate here and argue this point if you can. Would it be fair for the smarter people to be forced to support the less smart? Isn’t it counter-evolutionary?
Do you perhaps wear dreadlocks because you want to be a black person? Do you feel ashamed to be white? Isn’t that generalizing against all whites?
IQ is not a factor, believe me – all that IQ is is the way you respond to a certain type of test – i took the MENSA test which ‘tests IQ’ and got in although i think that is a complete money scam cos it was all about membership fees, but that has nothing to do with how clever you are – there are different types of intelligence/cleverness – knowing how to choose a non poisonous berry over a poisonous one for me feels like a better skill than knowing how to create a television – having someone skilled enough to fix the plumbing in your house feels more vital than knowing a good surgeon when your toilet is backed up… intelligence/IQ/knowledge are all as helpful as the context they are needed in.
i wear dreadlocks because i like the style. that’s it.
IQ is a factor. You don’t want a dumb plumber who cant fix your geyser properly. Besides I didn’t say blacks have a low IQ. All I am saying is that some studies said so. I don’t really agree with it, or at least don’t want to believe that. However I see many incidents which support this theory – blacks plugging cell phones into wall mains – or at least trying to. Blacks stealing copper cables on high voltage lines. Blacks train surfing. Lets not get into too many examples.
Picking berries anyone could learn. It is nothing to do with IQ. When last have you seen a berry bush?
A surgeon takes about 7 to 9 years to qualify. A plumber takes a year of apprenticeship. The surgeon will earn much more and rightfully so.
If intelligence is a factor then why should the clever have to support the stupid? I am a total dick I agree, but my wealthy friends and I all feel the same.
If you are so sympathetic, stop writing about it and invite blacks into your house. What job do you do?
What factors created this inequality? Lets list a few and argue that:
1. In 1652 or whenever whites and blacks came into contact with one another, were the cultures 2000 years apart technologically? An iron age culture meeting a culture with all kinds of technologies would have started everything on an unequal footing already.
2. Survival in Africa is difficult. The whites had to look after themselves. They did not have the resources to take every black person under their wings and look after them as well. Eventually they did begin to and this is how the blacks came to have an alphabet and the wheel.
3. Apartheid: Yes, we can agree that it created a further divide. However what were the alternatives? Did whites have enough resources to provide free healthcare, education? Were there enough teachers? Could you have poor and rich living next to one another without theft or envy? Could you have white and black kids in the same class when the blacks had trouble speaking English or Afrikaans and had no home help in the form of parents helping with homework for example? What could have been done instead of apartheid and how? Stop going on about apartheid, ask what could have been done instead.
4. Today, the poor tend to have many more kids and the population keeps getting larger. Thes hungry mouths have to be fed and by whom?
Hi Chris, I know you wrote this on the weekend but I have only seen this now.
You have mentioned a few topics on this and other posts that are very detailed and you have clearly taken time to respond, I would appreciate your thoughts on the following as they are so different to mine.
You mention IQ and intelligence as a reason to continue the the inequalities (almost in a ‘let the pigs continue in their ignorance’ sort of attitude) but would it not be smarter to reduce poverty (and therefore the inequalities) to ensure a sustainable economic platform for individuals to gain wealth? If we continue with the increasing gap of inequalities then eventually the surgeon won’t have anyone who can afford their skills.
Also, your view of history is very one eyed, exactly what you accuse others of being,you are right in one sense, Apartheid didn’t start the inequalities, but rather it accelerated the gap forward a century within a decade. Before the official start of Apartheid in 1960, there was a period where South Africa was ahead of its time with respect to health integration and we were beginning to have a universal system that cared for all South Africans equally that would have made the Nhs in the UK look like a poorer cousin. But this system was stopped in its infancy. Because it did not grow with the economy it could not handle the increased demand that 1994 created, Blacks were not factored into the Apartheid system.
These have largely been secular answers and questions but what I cannot fathom is your lack of compassion for the destitute and those much worse off than you. Christ teaches us to love our neighbour as we love ourselves, sorry, He doesn’t teach it, He commands it as the second of two commands.
Thanks for taking the time Chris.
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