This past week has seen a meteoric rise in the interest and participation in the Facebook Group #ImStaying.
The group describes themselves in this way:
This group is dedicated to the South African women and men of all races and all religions, who remain loyal to South Africa. This group is to honour all those who still believe that we as a nation can turn things around. To all those who choose to stay and work together to save this beautiful country we call home! This group belongs to all willing to make a positive difference! #ImStaying is our hashtag
Absolutely inspiring right? How could anyone possibly have anything against that?
Yet there have been some rumblings…
You put your one foot in, you put your one foot out
The group went from being fairly small to boasting a capacity of more than 200 000 people with most of the influx happening in the past week. For whatever reason, the vibe of the group caught people’s attention all at once and momentum started to build. i was invited to the group as were many others and a whole bunch of people started interacting with posts and people in there.
But within no time at all i heard of friends of mine who had left the group. Some after pretty much dipping their foot in; others after two days; then two good friends of mine who had both been engaging quite deeply with people [or trying to] left this morning [two women, one black, one white].
And i started hearing whispers and murmurs and conversations and statuses and inbox and Whatsapp messages and was involved in a whole number of them.
After initially make a comment speaking about critiquing the group one of my Facebook friends went off at me about not being positive and embracing the heart and spirit of the group and saving negative conversation for other places.
Eventually, after a whole lot more conversations i decided that i needed to respond in some way and so i hosted a Facebook Live conversation, which is probably the most interactive one i have had, in which i shared some of my concerns with the group and invited others to engage with some of theirs.
The Uncomfortable Nature of #ImStaying
To sum up what i said in the 35 minute video, these are the main points i raised:
- The promotion of ‘colourblindness’ – the idea that we should all move towards a place where no-one sees colour. Problems that i have with that, as well-meaning as it is which i totally know it is, is that when we live in a country which has been so shaped and developed around the concept of colour [especially in terms of past and continuing oppression] then we just absolutely HAVE to continue to see colour until we have successfully dealt with those things. The other side of it for me though is that when we don’t see colour, we stop seeing people. The future i envision is one where colour is seen and acknowledged and celebrated as all the different colours and cultures and races join together in the melting pot that is South Africa. What we want to say is that people will not be judged as “less than” in any way because of the colour of their skin, or any other superficial reason. Colourblindness, i believe, is trying to suggest the same thing, but i find it deeply problematic in silencing or erasing rather than engaging with and embracing.
- The Rainbow Nationism of the group. While i absolutely believe that the idea and concept of the Rainbow Nation is a beautiful one, we are fooling ourselves if we believe that we have arrived there, or are even close. The distinct gaps between rich and poor, which still largely fall along colour lines thus bringing colour into it, means that there remains much work to be done here. Comments like “Can’t we just forget the past and move on” avoid and ignore people’s past and present pain in the interests of seeking a comfortable present that doesn’t shake things up to much. Which feels gopod [for some] but is not real or honest enough for the majority.
- The Whiteness factor. Both in terms of who moderates the group [as far as i understand – although it may have changed] all of the moderators except perhaps one are white and there was an announcement that there were 16 moderators this morning and they have just added some more so not sure if that has changed at all. But when i arrived at the group and started reading posts [and even now as i do] it feels like the overwhelming majority of them are from white people. Who make up 8% of the people in this country. In a group looking to celebrate the people of South Africa that feels heavily over-represented. And problematic.
- The White Saviour stories held against the “good black” or “good person of colour” stories. So a story is shared where a black person or family ended up having a lack and a white person swooped in and bought them all the things and everything was okay. Or the converse which is a white person lost their wallet and a black person found it and didn’t even steal any money [the suggestion that all black people would have kept the wallet but this was a good black person and so the exception to the rule] so let’s celebrate them being a decent person and an exception. Which is horrendous and problem-filled and hopefully i don’t need to say too much more about why.
- One way in which the whiteness or white saviour stories play out is a lot of uncomfortable posts about domestic workers/the people who clean houses and look after children and how they are described as “my best friend” or “part of the family” and yet what isn’t mentioned is that they are the best friend/family member who cleans your toilet and doesn’t get public holidays! Possessive nouns used when describing employees [“Our domestic worker” “Our Susan”] which objectify and dehumanise, even when i don’t believe for a second in this space that is meant or intentioned [but we know too well that in other spaces it has been and continues to be]. Photographs of white people and black people together in harmony [particularly children] which give the idea that all is well, despite issues not being dealt with or deeper work done.
- Which brings me to the next one which is where it feels in #ImStaying as if any dissent, challenge, call towards or away with is muted. Posts have been deleted, some people have been kicked out of the group, comments have been muted or deleted and it doesn’t feel like there is much space at all to deal with serious issues that need to be dealt with. The idea that we have to just be positive is presented loudly both inside and outside of the group which led me to write this status, which i hope helps explain why that is problematic:
“Can’t we all just be positive?”
Not if your positive means injury to another… if the words you use are unkind or demeaning, if the comments you make are oppressive or racist, if the stereotypes you share are abusive and blind, if the power you demonstrate is belittling or condescending.
And certainly not if you are suggesting that being positive means that we refuse to do the necessary work that has largely been avoided or ignored for the past 25 years. Or shutting down, deleting or blocking anyone who calls for that work to be taken seriously. Sometime we have to start doing that work.
One person’s positive is another person’s oppression.
- Another huge factor is the aspect of Privilege. Some of the posts asking people to post their favourite places in the world or giving a bucket list of 50 places to travel to in South Africa which highlights the privilege of those who are able to travel at all, let alone out of the country. In fact, the group name itself #ImStaying, is one of privilege because it speaks to a group [of particularly white people, but also largely middle class and above] who have the means to make a decision to stay or go. When the majority of the people in South Africa do not have that option. Saying I’m Staying is a very privileged place of speaking, which has not been recognised or acknowledged. Which shows how out of touch some of the posters are with the real lived situations that the majority of the people in South Africa face.
Adrian’s Post
i was alerted to a post from a South African who lives in the US but had some similar concerns with the group, which [and a lot of others] deeply resonated with:
Adrian Fleur [24 September at 16:33]
I’ve seen so many positive stories from the #ImStaying group. Some are truly heartwarming ❤️🌹
But I can’t help but worry – it’s what we South Africans are so good at. I can’t help but be wary of the kumbaya rainbowists, the colourblind purple people, the “We are one viva Mzansi!!!” folk – where does it all go once the likes are forgotten and the shares have stopped making the rounds? What happens when we switch off our phones and shut down?
At the braais and the bars, do we tell our friends to stop making racist jokes? Do we correct them when they casually dismiss the pain of apartheid, or complain about the “blacks” in government? Do we stand up to them even if it means our friendships will be fractured, and then do we question whether we need friends like that in the first place?
And at home, do we tell our family too – we’re over it, we’ve had enough! No more garden boy or maid talk, no more fantasizing about a UK full of Saffas, no more reducing this country’s harrowing history to a plea for the farmers above anybody else who suffers. Just stop!
And then online, do we interrupt the incessant racial profiling on our neighbourhood watch Whatsapp groups? Do we tell our connections on social media to stop sharing fake news that inflame racial tensions? Do we make a noise on Facebook pages when people are being ignorant, divisive, hateful?
And away from all these comfort zones, out in the wider world, do we challenge our disregard for the working class, disdain for the poor, disgust for the homeless? Do we boycott the corporations committing crimes against us and our earth, do we get involved in our communities, do we keep up with all the different ways to help and serve? Do we actively try to tackle the disharmony in our country?
Because I’m certain it’s not with positive vibes alone…
We need more. We need deeper, difficult conversations. We need healing and understanding and a whole lot of patience. We need to face the truth of our nation: broken by violence, and never allowed a proper chance to recover. Never given a moment of peace or an opening to prosper.South Africa is a traumatised country, which means its people are traumatised. Yes, today. Yes, trauma is carried down through generations. Yes, this needs to at least be acknowledged for the healing process to begin. Singing kumbaya and we are one is all fine and dandy, but underneath the surface, there has to be real work. There has to be sincere and committed action. To me, the hashtag shouldn’t be #ImStaying. It should be #ImShowingUp! ✊✊✊
Some words from the crowd
i have grabbed some of the comments that were written as the live video was happening which share some more concerns and add to those i have already shared.
Alexa Russell Matthews: Struggling with good black stories or people in multi-racial families are being held up as THE sign of a non racial society
Jax Augustyn: Completely agree, Alexa Russell Matthews. Struggling with those stories too. While they are heartwarming and encouraging they don’t mean that racism/white privilege are not a big issue.
Christie Mae Roberts: And the adoption stories. Been thinking so much about the white savior narrative and the violation of children’s stories 😕
Alexa Russell Matthews: Christie Mae Roberts I have been struggling with this so much… It’s everything we are saying please don’t perpetuate. It’s such a violation of so much 🙁
= = = = = = = = = = =
Terence Mentor: Here’s why I don’t like the group:
White person: I think this about the country.
Person Of Colour: This is why our reality is different from what you are saying
White person: HOW DARE YOU!
= = = = = = = = = = =
Christie Mae Roberts: “Dismissive” is a word that comes to mind when ANYTHING is hard or challenged
Christie Mae Roberts: This is something I have wondering about – is it possible to celebrate the positive while also holding space for the difficult conversations, safe for people of colour, moderating and admined by a diverse group where privilege and the “nice” racism is addressed. In love 😉
= = = = = = = = = = =
Adrian Fleur: Since I wrote my post about the group I’ve been exposed to even more problematic and disturbing things. Everything that Christie highlights in this thread for instance. The racism that’s being allowed in the group without moderation is really alarming while the group poses as a positive space, likewise the censorship of anything remotely critical or questioning. No, just no 😫
In short I think the function of the group is to stroke white people’s egos, uphold privilege and support denialism. It’s a dangerous space.
= = = = = = = = = = =
Terence Mentor: That being said, I think being involved in a group like this important, not for the people posting the nonsense, but for the onlookers. From my experience, you can’t change the mind of the people who feel like they have an unique, clever perspective on race…especially white people. But you CAN move the needle for people who are thinking about these things.
Terence Mentor: I think we all need to understand power dynamics and colonised minds.
Terence Mentor”: Like…”My POC friend is okay with X, so you should be okay with this too” – we need to remember that many POCs have centuries of “white is right” pushed on them. They may not have thrown those heavy shackles off yet.
(I’m still struggling with this. I’m constantly asking myself if the way I behave and think is actually ME, or what whiteness has told me to be)
Terence Mentor: Worst thing my white friends have said about me: “You’re one of the good ones”
Brett “Fish”: Can we just take a moment to acknowledge how awful and hideous that statement is, with all of the assumption that is hiding in there. Something along the lines of ‘Coloured people are mostly bad but you’re not like the rest of them!’ – Wow, cannot even begin to get my head around that. Similar statement to: “I don’t even think of you as black!” – as if being black is a negative thing and this person has somehow escaped that. Urgh, this stuff is so toxic!
= = = = = = = = = = =
Alexa Russell Matthews: Someone asked this morning & it got deleted if the white people in this group recognize the damage of Apartheid & what restitution looks like…. So so sad this got deleted
Alexa Russell Matthews: Important – a BLACK group member asked WHITE people… To reflect on restitution and reconciliation and what this means practically.
= = = = = = = = = = =
Nobuntu Webster: So I have a list of issues with the group and am writing an opinion piece about it – but have struggled to articulate it – questioning whether I would be raining on the kumbaya parade. BUT, I then looked back at the past 25 years and realised that that was the very problem with 1994, 1996, 2010 etc… We faked love at the expense of truth. We can never genuine love without truth. And so, we have to speak the truth…In the same breath, lets speak the truth in love.
= = = = = = = = = = =
Dylan Hibbert: The group kinda feels like the 2010 world cup where we all hugged and played friends, but issues aren’t really addressed.
I also think there is a fear of posting honest conversation online as a result of backlash from the public.
= = = = = = = = = = =
Themba Thwala: Silent voice: “our relationship has problems that need to be addressed so that we can strengthen it and face whatever future challenges come our way, together. How do we resolve these/here are my suggestions …” Members/Moderators: “No sorry, this is not a forum for such discussions. Let’s rather sing Kumbaya …”
= = = = = = = = = = =
Ruth Irene Barnabas: · It really bothered me this morning when a black person who was expressing past hurts comments was removed mid dismantling. – it really projects the overall feel and rhetoric of the group which is deeply problematic. Which I think we have established.
How is anything truly “positive” in the light and reality of the deep injustice and inequality that still exists. Can we embrace it when firstly – white voices are privileged and setting the tone, when black voices are being stifled. It almost seems as if this group is successful because it allows whiteness a pass at self evaluation, it harbours privilege. It’s going to cause deeper issues of internalised racism for people of color there, black people are only accepted or acknowledge on condition of whiteness remaining superior because let white people dare hear that black people have legitimate feelings and experiences. They get muted, treated with whataboutism, etc
I have more to say but toddler is jumping on me.
The group is only as equal and diverse and inclusive as its admin team
= = = = = = = = = = =
Whose Group is it Anyway?
That last line from Ruth really jumped out at me: The group is only as equal and diverse and inclusive as its admin team
As of this morning, that was a team of sixteen people of whom one was a person of colour, from what I have heard. They put out a call today and asked for people to submit videos if they wanted to join the moderation team, so not sure how much that has changed.
Let me sum up my thoughts on #ImStaying by saying that i do think there is some good potential in there. You have a huge [and growing by the minute] gathering of people who are positively minded and dreaming of a country where we all just get along together [not a bad dream!]. The missing piece seems to be the one about doing any of the work needed to get us there. And the immediate dismissal of conversations and questions that seem to touch on that stuff. As well as the problematic nature of some of the posts, pictures and ideas being expressed that are positive to some and alienating to others. There really need to be some black, coloured and indian people who are part of the leadership of the group and listened to in terms of understanding how best to move it forwards.
So yes, you are staying, but are you willing to do the hard, uncomfortable, awkward, time-consuming, costly work that is needed to turn this country around? And can you lay your defensiveness to the side long enough to hear the pain, fears, dehumanisations and negative experiences of others? Or does that interrupt the melody of the Kumbaya tune that you are trying to play?
If you are a white person and committed to South Africa, one very practical place to start is over here with a list of 40 things you can do…
[A follow up post on an exciting group you can join called ‘Conversations for a Just South Africa]
Just by virtue of the group’s name/theme #Imstaying, to me it’s exclusive and speaks volumes of privileged whiteness, I certainly would not even consider joining the group.
As an African, I have no option but to stay and ensure I make it work right here, because this is home for me. I don’t have the liberty of deciding whether to go or stay. #Imstaying is power and privilege talking, because somebody has one foot in and another out options. It clearly shows some white people still do not see this country as ‘home’ for them and their own…reminded of migrant labouring during apartheid years, when, no matter how long people stayed, the city, Jo’burg in particular, was never perceived as home but a place of gold digging and money making, so is my country to some people of Europeans descend. There’s no need for #Imstaying, let those who want to go, do so without campaigning.
Thank you Nthabi, i can only agree with everything you are saying here…
Nthabi – I hear you – and I am in the same position, I cannot go anywhere, and I am “white”. But just an interesting stat – currently there are more “black” than “white” people emigrating at the moment. Search for the following article for the stats:
“More black than white South Africans leaving the country
2019-08-25 21:31 – Selene Brophy”
Without a qualification that is needed in other countries in the world, or a second passport (which few people have) – we are all in the same boat, we need to work on what we have here.
That’s really the bottom line – those of us who are staying for whatever reasons must get together and do the work!
Will you do anything for attention? You’re an absolute knob mate. This article is pure bollocks. You’re stirring shit where someone’s trying to establish a bit of goodwill amidst a dangerous, unmanaged current of resentment. Please consider yourself part of the problem henceforth.
Thank for your comment Justin. When you are trying to protect the reputation of something you are involved in as “A bit of goodwill” and feel that the way to do that is by calling someone else a knob, sorry, “an absolute knob”, then you are just kind of proving the point. Feel free to attack my argument, which if you can read it with an open-mind you would have seen was an honest critique, but don’t attack me, cos you clearly don’t know the first thing about me! Good luck!
In the first few moments I found myself struggling with this group . And the most I engage the more I struggle . As a black woman I’m failing to reconcile myself with this group and this article captures why 💕
Thank you Angela. Please come and join us in the Conversations for a Just South Africa group. We are not an antidote for #ImStaying by any means but we are hoping to engage with the work that needs to be done on a deeper level and hopefully see it move towards action beyond the online space…
Glad you found us
Brett “Fish”
How many people are there in this day and age that had any control over the past history of this country? Turn this around – what has happened in the past 24 years where money has been given to many people to empower black people – how many businesses do you see today that have provided employment and growth for the younger generation. The same situation where the young generation have had no vote no control over the past 24 years, many white people today had no say in the past and were too young too vote, too young to hate! What if there are this many people that have nothing to justify – done no wrong just good and embraced other cultures. At what point do the people say enough is enough, if the past is holding growth and development back, surely like everything in life – let go of the past its only holding us back from going forward. For those that choose to live in the past, stay there but don’t stop those that choose to move forward, to progress, to unite and SURVIVE because this is our only choice!
Brilliant post adressing so many of the things that have started bothering me about the group and some of the recent posts.
Thank you Charlene. Feel free to share and tag others in who may also be uncomfortable. And also please consider coming and joining the Conversations for a Just South Africa group where we are hoping to see some deeper engagement happen!
Brett “Fish”
I hear what you are saying and it is true and relevant. But it is a platform to challenge people to put their money where their mouth is and actually get stuck in. I plan a post on practical ways to help our country. As a social worker I think this group could be a good resource for NGOs & NPOs and the people who really need the help and support.
Melanie, if people in there start doing the work then absolutely up for it. Definitely a great idea to make connections with NGOs and NPOs so go for it! All the best!
Brett
Oh thank goodness! I hoped I would find the place where this conversation is taking place! I wrote a post earlier this week that never made it to the group’s timeline. I also sent an inbox message to the Admin, offering to help moderate and stating my concerns… I will copy and paste it below. 5 days later I am still waiting for any acknowledgement of my message. I guess I have my answer.
Here is a copy of my message to them:
“Hi Jarette and Joanita, THANK YOU SO MUCH for creating this group and starting this movement! I think it is long overdue and I think the responses to the group are proof of that! I am a proud citizen of Mzansi, doing my Ph.D. in the Cultural Foundations of Education in the USA right now and will be back to stay in 2020. I can help with moderating and I think it could be helpful because I am awake while you folks are asleep! 🙂 I think limiting the posting times is a brilliant idea to give yourselves some breathing room. I do, however, want to make sure that this group will be a good fit for me before I commit and send you a video. You might see my first post to the group (amongst the millions of others!!!) as it is pending Admin approval. I am a critical theory scholar who asks difficult questions sometimes. I LOVE the videos and positive stories and some make me terribly homesick. At the same time, I don’t believe in whitesplaining things and I’m not a fan of the white saviour complex. You will see that I didn’t use these terms in my post because I am respectful and know that I come from a very specific perspective. Making myself vulnerable and doing the work that white people need to do to move this country forward, is what I do and also why I am staying. That makes some people uncomfortable, which I think is a good thing… but if you think this is not the right forum for that I will understand 100%”
I guess their forum is not the right fit for me, but it sounds like your group might be!! I hope I can join the “Conversations for a just South Africa”.
Hi Hetsie, you will be most welcomed at Conversations although i think i may have seen your name there already – remember approving someone Veitch for membership, was that you? You aren’t by any chance related to Joy and Andrew Veitch? Knew them back in my Baptist Wow team days…
We are trying to create a space where difficult questions can be asked [which #ImStaying has explicitly stated they are not] and so i imagine it will be a good fit for you so please get stuck in there…
All the best with the rest of your studies and look forward to having you back here in 2020!
love brett “Fish”
For me this group with all it’s faults is group to aslo experience the beauty love and connection between SA’s. It shows we are much more than what dominates media. And even though there are elements of prejuduce I am also experiencing limited judgment, curiosity, and eagerness to learn. It is in these conversations too that we can transform, not only in the ones that are strictly aware and conscious. I would love this group to last for a while because I think it is an important part of serving the Macro picture. Just the numbers indicate we should amplify this and not dampen it.
i hear you, Casper, but it continues to concern me that the group as a whole is refusing to commit to doing any work that takes any kind of effort or causes discomfort. Which means you have a certain type of people in the group and a certain type of people are excluded from the group. Given that we are 25 years into post apartheid and that white people have not as a whole done much work at all on themselves since those days it feels like too much of a cop out and a lack of care and consideration for others.
Thank you for the thought and heart that went into this post.
Thanks for taking time to read it and comment.
I’ve not joined the group, but it got shoved into my feed. There was a white woman in a doek bragging about her wokeness for her cultural appropriation. The page struck me as an opportunity for Saffa whites to signal their virtue. In any other setting, they would get called on their toxicity. This page is just one part of a trend that’s been becoming increasingly mobile in recent months. I’ve read more comments than I can count singing the praises of apartheid on supposedly positive SA Facebook pages, so of course, the rest of their attempts at positivism come out sideways. I thought we had come further than this.
Sho. Don’t know what to add. i think you’ve nailed it. So problematic when no feedback can be given and the majority of the leadership holding the space are white.
You know there is really a few things that is not considered here, these people did not know they were going to get the overwhelming response when they started this group. I for one have been striking up conversations for years now with fellow South Africans that I am sure we do not all hate each other – and with the overwhelming response of positivity in I’mStaying group I saw that I was right. Where to start in finding one another in this country? Do we jump in with difficult conversations without seeing one another’s hearts? I have seen testimonies of peoples perspective changing about one another because of the positivity on the group.
What I cannot understand is every time something positive happens we need to immediately, like immediately look at the negative side and criticize. And it’s not like this with just this group, it’s like this with anything positive in life.
There has been given no space for this group to grow to a place where he can tackle hard problems, no – people now expect a group like this to stand on foundations that haven’t had the chance to be laid yet. If I want to talk about difficult things that have happened in the past, do you think it will be successful if we get to know each other first and realize first there is beauty in everyone, or will it be successful when we jump into a conversation like that from a place of anger and just seeing red?
I am not bashing anything here, I am saying too soon with the criticism, I am saying try to see the huge complex situation of a group jumping to overwhelming size in a matter of 2 weeks.
I am saying see the important foundation this group is laying before we can deal with hard issues – it makes sense to start from that type of positive foundation – if social media conversations on news pages etc have told you anything is that coming to hard conversation on your hind legs without insight always always ends horrifically..
The whiteness factor in terms of the group moderation is because the group grew so much overnight, I have seen videos of a black guy buying food for a poor white kid as well, I don’t think the good stories there should be looked at in the light that we do. No need to feel inadequate no – I surely cannot bring anything to the table as I am poor as well.
Now where should we start then, if I cannot tell you all the positive interaction I have had with my fellow africans then where can I start being positive then? If you read those stories you hear lives has been touched, love that was spread and care that no one knew about…. We go on and on about privilege, then here I come I have privilege, people criticize because I haven’t helped others with my privileged, then I share a story to show what I have done to change hearts that others can see I really do love people and I really do want the best for everyone in South Africa – now you are saying it is also wrong. When I keep quiet I am hated because I am seen as the enemy, but when someone shares my actions in their lives it’s also not right – then what is? How do we share any positivity then? We just jump in then and try to sort out huge issues with people still believing the worst of me?
We cannot all just think people will learn and understand one another so quickly – there have been things posted that was offensive culturally, guess what some lovely black lady explained the situation and all of us learned something, the post was kept it was a good learning curve. I believe more of these opportunities will arise, so why don’t you be that person that comes and kindly explain something so that we all can learn from one another – honesty is important.
I have spoken from my heart here, and I feel all of this is premature, where this a whole while down the line say 10 months of seeing the trend you mentioned, then perhaps I would have said, better timing and yes it’s time to address these types of conversations – but now?
Can I put Windows in the air where they should be in the house if the foundation haven’t been dug or laid yet? There isn’t even walls in this house yet to lay those windows in!
Thanks Carma, i hear your passion and desire for positivity and growth which is a good thing. And the idea of connection and people seeing each other is great as well. No-one is knocking that – well i am not – but also to say coming from a place of anger and just seeing red is unfair and untrue – many people i know, myself included, were trying to have gentle conversations with people where we posed questions and invited people to see privilege and how something they were saying might be painful for others to hear etc and most of those posts were deleted and good work was interrupted that was not causing any anger or name calling or anything. The moderators of the group have given no indication that there is a bigger picture time when they want to deal with deeper things, which is what you are alluding to here but they have not said it and in my view have said quite the opposite – all we want is to be positive – they have not acknowledged that hard work lies ahead but lets get to know each other first before we get to it – or anything like that. And they have cut down, deleted and blocked anyone who has tried to suggest that.
Beyond that there are worrying things in terms of the majority of those running the group being white [with huge blind spots – it is clear from looking at some of their walls that they have not done any of the race work needed to legitimately host deeper conversations in this country] and also in terms of things they have said about it being a business and wanting to have control of all the money [merch etc] – i was not skeptical of this side of it at the beginning but from videos posted by the main guy i am not so sure he is not trying to make a huge profit off of all this positivity. He changed his job on his facebook page to #ImStaying – he sees this as a salary…
We are looking to create a space that will hopefully be as positive but also invite the hard conversations and tough work needed to move forwards… it’s 25 years into post apartheid with so little work done that i don’t think there is time to say ‘give us some time to get to know each other’ – what have you been doing for the last 25 years?
i think you mean well but if you are serious about change in South Africa i don’t believe that #ImStaying is it!
Have a great week
love brett fish
Great article, you have done well to highlight some of the issues that pops up in the #imstaying group. But as to the inclusiveness and questions of privilege I think you have possibly missed the point of the group. With a name like Imstaying it clearly indicates that the group is focused on people that have the means (privilege) to leave and yet have chosen to stay and make a difference.
It’s so easy to criticize from the sidelines, here is a group that is trying to make a difference to peoples lives. But instead of seeing the good that they are trying to do, only the bad is noticed. I can’t believe that when someone helps out a fellow human from a different race by either helping them financially, emotionally, physically, or however they get bashed for being privileged, virtue signaling, etc. or thanking someone for being honest (something that is in short supply in all of society recently) they are somehow consumed by a superiority complex. That does not really promote willingness to help. But if they don’t help they are racist. Either way they are actually called racist. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
The problem is that instead of trying to help each other we are more willing to pull our fellow human down. People are complaining that whites have a relationship with their domestic workers not because they are both human but because the one is in the employ of the other? WTF. There are hundreds of thousands of people employed as domestic workers, what would they be doing if they were not employed in this way? Is it wrong to employ a domestic worker? Should a company dismiss all their cleaning staff because it’s degrading work. How privileged is that idea? Just because you would not like that job does not mean that the person that works as cleaner isn’t proud to be able to provide for their family. Many, many people would much rather work as a domestic worker than beg, collect recyclables, crime. Sure many people would rather be manager in an office, but that’s not for everyone. One of my employees that is better qualified than me rather works as a domestic worker than in the corporate enviroment, out of choice.
It’s ironic how people complain about other peoples privilege but totally ignore that they themselves are predigest.
Thank you so much for taking the time to visit and share your thoughts. i do hear you on what seems like bashing a bunch of people who are just trying to be positive. But i respectfully disagree.
A lot of the uncomfortable nature of the posts on #ImStaying is the way they often make people of colour look in relation to white people [white people shown as the benefactors or saviours or heroes] and when a person of colour is praised [the wallet story] it implies surprise as if all black people would not have given the wallet back… So they are very subtle and probably most of the time not meant by the people posting but they have made a lot of people uncomfortable and rightly so. A lot of the stories with domestic workers come across as “Look at me [white person] look how great i am because i treat this person as a person” [although they still clean my toilet and don’t get public holidays and in many cases get paid monstrously!]
The main problem many of us have with the group though is the refusal to admit that a lot of hard work needs to be done and cannot be done in the group beccause of the mandates of the largely white people running the group [another problem is when you have 15 out of 16 moderators who are running a group that is meant to represent South Africa] – the name of the group which is only relevant to people who have the ability to leave [which again would be mostly white people] and so a huge percentage of people in the country excluded from the group purely because they don’t have the choice.
And then this is 25 years after apartheid officially ended – if this was year 2 it would make a lot more sense – but 25 years of white people not making a lot of movement means we should not have the freedom to have a fun group first before we commit to doing the work. We are late on the work. We need to get going. It is urgent. To this extreme the group has, at least until now, largely missed the point.
Unfortunately I believe you have also fallen into the trap of generalizing. The fact that a domestic worker cleans the toilet is an aspect of job description and not of racism of of superiority. A domestic worker can and should still be respected regardless of their duties. As for the the public holidays it is once again legislated and if they are pieceworkers the “No work no pay” principle applies. If they are permanently employed, employees should get public holidays off or be paid overtime. This is not about prejudice but the law.
I’m not defending the group “I’mstaying” but rater trying to gauge if the ire with the group is justified. Many of the concerns here are about things not within the scope of the group. In reality everyone in SA can leave, it’s just easier/more comfortable for some, some people without the means have successfully applied for asylum in other countries.
Part of the movement and popularity is probably due in reaction to far left groupings like the EFF, BLF and their ilk that are pushing a populist view that Africa is only for black Africans. I don’t think that national inclusion was the goal of the group and thus it should not be judged on criteria that does not apply to them. As for the racial demographic, For 25 years there has been an narrative that non black South Africans should “go back” (leave SA) so the #I’mstaying does not really apply to the majority of black South Africans as nobody has told them to leave. Ironically there are now more Blacks in SA with the financial means to “leave” than non blacks. There is also rumblings of middle class blacks that want to immigrate. #I’mstaying will definitely appeal to them.
The group is not actively excluding anyone. Unlike many places and policies that exclude whites, etc.
Doing the work happens everyday. Having a group to motivate people to stay is part of doing the work. Ironically the work of building the enviroment for a multicultural society to flourish should be done by government, which is run by blacks, 25 years later we are more divided than ever. I’m not sure what you are saying but it sounds a bit like you are saying that whites should be doing the work that the government is failing to do?
Everyone has their faults, but those that do nothing should not have the right to dictate to those that do something, especially if they try and create a better environment for all.
Absolutely untrue that everyone in South Africa can leave. Probably less than ten percent of the country [and probably majority white although that may have changed somewhat] actually have the means of leaving the country… that is some of the blindness we are feeling uncomfortable when it comes to the group – people making assumptions that are just completely not even close to being true. The cleaner stuff i rushed through so didn’t properly communicate my feelings cos i thought i said enough for you to get it, but the problem isn’t cleaning toilets or public holidays but the statements about “this person is my best friend” and “this person is like family to me” and then in many cases not paying them well enough and certainly not treating them like real family or friends – the power dynamic doesn’t allow that a lot of the time – but so many of the stories on there make white people look like the heroes and black people like the worthy recipients of white peoples’ love – just so much wrong with that…
But spend some time leaning in to your comment on everyone can in reality leave the country and interrogate some of the misconceptions you are approaching these conversations with. i appreciate you continuing to engage with me and love the statement of ‘doing the work happens everyday’ but my general feeling with #ImStaying is that they are saying all work has has to happen outside of this space which is just for balloons and streamers and we just don’t have time for that nonsense with all the work that does need to be done!
brett
Your cover image says “Saying” instead of “Staying”.
Yes, It is an intended play on words!
You nailed it. Thank you. Will be joining Conversations….
Ah thank you and you will be most welcome there! Bring your friends!
Hi,
I just want to engage on a different perspective that wasn’t addressed in this piece.
The group calling itself #Imstaying in itself is the classic divisive style of things in SA. Just another Us vs Them banner and again just comes across as resentfulness of people who are “staying behind”.
The wording of it all and from what you have described roughly translates to:
“We could leave, but we are “choosing” to stay, unlike those other traiters who left when it got really tough. We are gonna take one for the team and fix the shit out of this country by showering ourselves in happy feely social media propaganda while conveniently ignoring the actual problems and laying out the hate carpet for the expats”
The reality is that there are a ton of people who have gone/go/will go for short to long term stints outside of South Africa who probably in their trauma already feel guilty for doing so but also are in the incredible position to share their learnings of how to do things that may well help to solve a lot of the problems at home.
But here we are just villifying more people, because thats how its done right?
Thanks for sharing Adrian. That is an interesting perspective for sure. It is hard to generalise about all those who have left because there are so many reasons – some move to, some away from – some i can understand more than others and generally i have found the away from crowd quite difficult because i have seen more negativity or arrogance than the guilt you speak of [although i’m sure there are some that is true of] but helpful to keep us thinking of such things, thank you!
Brett… Iv just left South Africa, because of work. It was one of the toughest what I called “crisis” of my life because I have no impulse to “flee” whatsoever. Anyone that knows me can attest to my best attempt to bring authentic change where I can. So I appreciate Adrian’s post. Guilt is very much there. But what I realize..and this is in my unique case… is that the more I engage in my work which is mostly international even when staying in SA, the more my opinion is somehow heard by friends and I have been the most effective in challenging narratives. Not that I’m super woman by any means… But just what iv observed. I guess God’s plan isn’t as clear and cut as staying or leaving. Generalizations are super dangerous because they simply feed and bring momentum to the obvious narrative and steal power and space from the outliers who are trying just as hard to be heard and bring change to the group norm. In fact in this case it could serve to alienate international allies in the important call for authentic change and conversations in SA. So yes I guess the..”those that left and those that are staying” is for me a bit primitive if I put a lense to it, although I fully get the sentiment and the important message to engage engage engage.
That said, I agree with every point you have made about the #iamstaying narrative. Thanks for naming it all.
Ah Penni, thank you so much. You are one of those legends i just get to read about on social media and we never really get to hang but i appreciate you so much and what you do and i feel like i do get where your heart is in terms of your leaving and the conversations and work you will do and the blanket definitely does not cover you.
We left for three years with a very specific work and intention outside but it was the greatest thing for me because it was the catalyst for all the work i needed to be doing here that i wasn’t before. God is always bigger! Rock on!
you pretty much summed up everything i’ve been thinking since going through posts on that group. I even wrote something about “having difficult conversations”… alas, my post is still being reviewed 🙁
Thanks Otis.. “still being reviewed” you mean… try Conversations for a Just South Africa and see what is happening in there – still finding its feet but i think headed to a good place!
“still being reviewed”….what’d I say? 😐 …lol….I see you corrected whatever my typo was 😀 thanx.
P. I’ve joined that group…it looks like its headed in a very good direction.
No no i just added the ” ” as in not really…
Glad you’re in there… think there will be some great stuff happening there soon
love brett fish
And you had to knock a good thing Brett. You didnt even give the group 1 month. Not even 1 month and you lambasted them by forcing people to acknowledge Race and the issues of Apartheid. So off you go and open your own group. Did the thought not cross your mind that people are just down right gatvol of Politics, all the negativity, all the Racialistic comments and posts on Social Media. Here something good comes along laced with Respect first and formost, oodles of humour and loads of feel good posts, which the people of this Country desperately needs and you knock them. It comes across as someone with sour grapes and who is jealous. Open your GoMeFund and go feed the poor kids in Gugulethu , but do it quietly. God, must everything be hashed out till its Dead just because we got a certificate in Theology, now we must know “everything” about how it feels to be a person of colour. Well done Brett. You sullied something good in South Africa under the guise of “Lets have a conversation to make things better” ppppfff. I see you. I see you Brett.
hey Carmen, thanks for the comment. i think you don’t see me though else you would know i certainly don’t have any kind of degree of theology, just a deep love for Jesus and the people around me.
The main problem i have with your comment is this: “You had to knock a good thing, Brett” – My question is good for who? i [and others] spent enough time in that group to see that one person’s positive can very definitely be someone else’s pain. The pictures and stories of domestic workers being paraded to show how good white people are is just one example.
A group that suggests we can be positive in South Africa without doing the much needed work is, i believe, missing the reality of this country for the majority. And keep in mind the context of the time this is happening in – 25 years after apartheid officially ended and a majority white group [cos while there are a rich diversity of other people in #ImStaying, the majority definitely feels white and the majority of the leadership is white] says “Let’s just be positive” and actively says “we are not going to talk about race, religion or politics in here” – no divisive things, just happy feelings and things that unite us. It’s way too late – 25 years into this thing when white people have hardly made any movement towards black, coloured and indian people? No, the time is passed for that if it was ever right.
We need to be doing the work. You give me too much credit when you say i sullied something good in South Africa.
Have a great day further, but please take time to critique and ask good questions to something you have become part of which is obviously bringing you joy. If #ImStaying is the legit business for South Africa then nothing i say or do is going to stop or even dent it… but if it isn’t?
Hi Brett, tripped over your post whilst “observing” #iamstaying today. Observing as I was invited to join the group and have been watching the progress over the last 2 weeks. My family and I decided to leave JHB in January and are no longer in SA – we do have family left behind in SA who spend an inordinate amount of time trying to make a difference – we have always been the “do good works privately” type of family so unlikely to post on that type of forum. Thank you for hitting the nail on the head with your concerns – and hope that i can be considered for your Conversations For A Just South Africa group.
Hi Colette, thank you and absolutely – it is a closed group but it is open to all [just a way to keep it safer from bots and trolls] so you will definitely be allowed in. Ha ha this came as i am half way through a post where i just quoted ‘do good works privately’ and am challenging the idea a little so check back later and let me have your thoughts…
All the best
love brett fish
Hi Colette, thank you and absolutely – it is a closed group but it is open to all [just a way to keep it safer from bots and trolls] so you will definitely be allowed in. Ha ha this came as i am half way through a post where i just quoted ‘do good works privately’ and am challenging the idea a little so check back later and let me have your thoughts…
All the best
love brett fish
Hi Brett
Great article indeed. I was part of that group until I asked for a dialogue about the land issue. The admins called for my removal and all those who participated in that discussion, yesterday. The next thing, my comments were removed one by one and posting and commenting was blocked. Eventually, the whole post was deleted.
That group displays what they want seen by the onlookers. Should you post something worth being discussed or makes the supreme whites uncomfortable, your post will never be approved. They only approve posts that praise white people as Messiah’s.
If you need screenshots of the discussion I started on land that got me removed with many others and led to the establishment of a runaway group, let me know or check my Facebook page or twitter account. I have posted all screenshots there.
I agree with you, that group is problematic
Thanks so much Zuks and sorry about your experience – they are literally silencing you. So awful. Apparently the founder is going to be on CapeTalk sometime after ten so worth calling in and sharing this experience if you feel up for it.
I don’t see my comment here, did I say something offensive, Brett?
i see it so not sure why you can’t – was approved and responded to!
I see it now. Thank you
Yo Brett!
Great article, agree agree. I’m still waiting for my post “Share a story of a time you challenged someone’s racist attitude/ talk/ behavior/ assumptions, not online but in person” to be approved… It’s been over a week so I think it’s in the digital dumpster 😔 That made me realize we might only be allowed to share superficial, warm and fuzzy stories (although I do believe my post called for pretty big, feel good, kick racism in the kahoonas warm and fuzzies 💪🏻)
Another thing I think we as individuals in this country simply don’t get (even if we’ve travelled it, which most haven’t) is how extremely different things are in different regions. Classic example of projection of how we see things on to everyone else. And projection is a defense that can help establish relationship at first but inevitably and necessarily crumbles under the weight of the reality of difference – “Oh, wait, you’re NOT me! That’s surprising and puzzling and distressing! What shall I do about that?”
And this is where psychological understanding of human psychological development is essential, I think – just as it is for parents to understand their growing children. Sometimes those with more maturity think those with ‘less’ (you know what I mean) aren’t behaving in certain ways because they WON’T, they’re being willfully difficult and contrary and should just see it our way, understand what we’re saying and try harder. “They just don’t LISTEN” is what you’ll hear most from parents. But most of the time they CAN’T. And that is VERY hard to accept. Someone who splits and sees only good/bad, right/wrong, either/or simply CAN NOT hold duality and paradox and grey. It requires an immense amount of grace and humility to bear with this, which requires even MORE maturity than ‘we mature’ have – which is why Nelson Mandelas et al are so rare. Patiently and repeatedly bearing with another’s FLIPPING FRUSTRATING behavior requires a deep love and ability to see beyond the tiny present moment to the big picture of what is realistic for now and what we hope for in the future – and a million tiny deaths to ourselves.
So I won’t leave the group simply because I might observe ‘immature’ ways of seeing/being (and I know I have blind spots too). I hope that the wise voices choose to stay, and don’t abandon the crazy preschool of chaos and noise in imstaying (is that condescending? I hope not) simply because they might be in a grade 5/7/10/12/university way of seeing. A paraphrase of a favorite quote is that we most despise the level of maturity we have just graduated from – which also evident in children! We need all levels to stay and speak if we’re gonna grow.
Phew that was longer than anticipated. Lots of love to you and TBV!!! X
Thanks Sue, a lot of really helpful stuff in there – would encourage you to dip your foot into Conversations for a Just South Africa as well cos some of the conversations in there have been rough and raw and illuminating and contain a lot of the depth #ImStaying doesn’t allow… but ja i don’t think it’s all bad, just hectically problematic in so many ways and if i see another ‘this is me and my domestic worker family pic’ i just don’t know…
Daniel Barenboim in his BBC Reith Lectures, 2006, said: “To quote Martin Buber … ‘There can be no peace between Jews and Arabs that is only a cessation of war. There can only be a peace of genuine co-operation.’ End of quotation. Therefore peace requires dialogue, a dialogue which consists of sensitive talking and often painful listening.” https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/radio4/transcripts/20060505_reith.pdf
… “a dialogue which consists of sensitive talking and often painful listening.”
The sensitive talking part is missing, and the painful listening part is ignored in the AmStaying group. Going to try out the Conversations For A Just South Africa group instead.
Hi Martin, powerful quote thank-you. And spot on. Conversations is still finding its feet as it is a few days old but at least opening up spaces for the difficult uncomfortable conversations that need to be had and stories that need to be told… sensitive talking and painful listening – wow! Please post this in the group!
Hi Brett,
I joined the group for 24 hours. I believe they’re feeding egos. We can’t all ignore the past hurts and all of a sudden join hands and sing Kumbayah.
I created a post to introduce myself and spoke of all the trauma I’ve gone through, and even had a silver lining at the end of the post. I guess it was to negative for them, because it was too real and touched on the true societal issues plaguing us all.
You cannot act like poverty doesn’t exist. There are no jobs, there is division, people who can are leaving and the economy is collapsing.
To paint all of this as a heavenly paradise is just perverse.
We need talks about the past, all of it, the oppression, the killing, the displacement. The only way to heal, is for people of all walks of life to have a platform to share their pain and get the attention and support they need to heal.
Everyone needs an ear to listen, and a shoulder to cry on. Money and land aren’t the real issue, it’s the emotional baggage that we need to deal with.
Status, greed and all that are a hindrance, a distraction from the truth.
We need to do the long hard talks, the pain, the sorrow, the disgust, the tears and heartbreak, it all needs to be expressed.
Let’s do the hard work, that everyone tries to ignore!
Thanks Alistair, yes everyone is welcome as long as you keep it light and fluffy. i don’t know how i have escaped being banned thus far but it will happen. If you have not yet, come and check out Conversations for a Just South Africa cos there are some real conversations happening there despite it still being a fledgling group!
So you want whites to recognize and do something about their white privilege, but then when they do you criticize them for being ‘White Saviours’. Stuck between a rock and a hard place here, bru.
Hi Nick. Not sure what you are trying to say. White people need to recognise and acknowledge their white privilege, yes. BUT then they need to act on it and leverage it to make ways for those who do not have the same privilege. There is a difference to that and the White Saviour notion which is “Look at how good i am because i helped this poor black person.” Leveraging privilege is more about working together and white saviourism is about centering the story on the white person. This stuff is messy and difficult and requires work so pitch up and push through a little bit– don’t be so easily offended and run away so quickly… think back to how bad it was and is for so many others and join us in the work…
Very interesting read.got me thinking 🤔
Thank you so much, appreciate you stopping by.
Brett
I disagree . It is better to light a candle than to continually curse the darkness . I truely thank God for #Iamstaying . Proud to be a South African who wants to be here and wants to be part of the solution
Thanks Jayne. As am i. But the biggest issues many of us have with #ImStaying is the lack of wanting to be part of the solution – anything related to the hard work of change is undermined, deleted and blocked. They just want happy thoughts and positive vibes and in a country as messed up as ours it is going to take difficult and uncomfortable coonversations and sweat, effort and cost to change things around…
While I appreciate your thoughts on #ImStaying, I’m afraid I disagree with a LOT as well.
Go back to the purpose and intent of the Admin. At THIS point the platform is one of encouragement, motivation, unity . . . it’s grown exponentially which has its own set of problems to deal with. Bear that in mind – it’s not even a month old and as of 4:00m on 3/10/2019 the count exceeds 446,000!
Guidelines & rules are clear (and if you don’t agree to them, you don’t get admitted, plain & simple, regardless of race) – THIS is not the platform for that debate (whether it be political, racial, religious) . . .that’s just not the purpose HERE.
There’s lots going on behind the scenes that is really, really exciting for the country – allow the movement time to put all these components in place.
Don’t be so quick to judge and state that they are not willing to be part of the solution – you couldn’t be further from the truth. But it begins with changing the narrative – it begins with people actually seeing one another in their humanity, not in a skin color. In no way does this equate to ‘not acknowledging the past’ or ‘dealing with realities’. Allow for baby steps before demanding giant leaps…. be part of the solution, please, instead of being critical of a group that has people saying ‘I was supposed to be leaving the country next month – now I’m staying and I want to be part of the solution’ …. or ‘I’d given up hope because of all the negativity – I haven’t felt so proud to be SA in a very long time, thank you for reminding me of the goodness in people and for bringing us together to be reminded of that.’
These are not things to be dismissed …. I live overseas and some of the most toxic people I know are expat SAs – sadly. Here is a movement that is a POSITIVE thing for SA. Is it perfect? No, but at least it’s something, and it’s a BIG something. Give it time to evolve and grow. There’s a learning curve for all involved. Support one another – SAs are very, very good at being divisive and breaking each other down. Celebrate what IS coming out of this, and that’s an opportunity for hundreds of thousands of blacks & whites to communicate in a whole new way with one another.
Is it middle-class white dominated – NOT ANYMORE! I see people from every demographic …. if they are on FB they can participate with the understanding of what THIS group’s intentions and visions are. Be excited for where this is heading – the very practical outcomes that will result. Imperfect action is better than no action!
Thanks Margaret, i appreciate your perspective and i am trying to be really slow to dismiss the group in its entirety. The fact that 450 000 people are gathered in a positive spirit definitely means something and frustrating as it is that they have actively made quite a definitive point about not doing the hard work, my hope is that people will get there, that through the superficiality of a lot of the posts and the friendly banter amongst people of different races, that walls are starting to come down and people will start to really see each other and at some point – hopefully soon – realise that the difficult work has to happen and lean into that…
It is still white led and while there are people of all types in the group absolutely, it still feels largely white driven – pictures of families with domestic workers seem to dominate and stories about overseas and other privileged things which exclude are in abundance… but in between those there are moments for nudging and prodding and stepping towards…
So i am super wary but not completely dismissive and very hopeful for the country.
Thank you for taking the time – your words were a good reminder.
Brett
Here are my two cents. I’m not a member of #ImStaying and won’t join it: I left the country. But I was also part of resistance to apartheid including the underground. I left because I believed that the dream of liberation for all – namely economic freedom – was being ignored and violence is extreme. I am not reading on your list Brett words about you and others showing how they worked to end apartheid. Nor what you are doing now to end joblessness, homelessness, rampant addiction, one of the worst education systems in the world, etc etc.
Indeed, this list is becoming one of self-satisfied I-am-better-thans – that too is repugnant.
There is never just one way to heal, it always involves many approaches. Start your own groups for Gods sake and sit pontificating on FB and act as though that makes a difference when it never does. If we had social media during apartheid we’d still have it. It encourages lazy big mouth syndrome.
A group of mostly white people who say “I am not leaving” is in many ways appropriate – they tend to be the ones either through ancestry, family living abroad, or economic capacity the ones with the greatest ability to leave. I say that even though I have black SA friends – some very wealthy – here.
The fact that this group love the country, put up with crazy violence and stay testifies to a deep love of land and people. It seems singularly sad that you want to trash that.
And is some of their ‘ownership’ of the people who work for them cringe-worthy? Absolutely. However, that sense of responsibility to an employee is often a bridge between even worse poverty and opportunity for the children of that employee in particular. Nine years after leaving the country, the char who worked for me twice a week in SA still writes to me a few times a month. In the last three years I’ve found two jobs – longdistance – for her. The first with a very famous black woman was disastrous, she was exploited to the hilt. Back to searching: she now works for a fantastic couple, he is Jewish, wife is Indian. However, I still pay for clothes and education for the child at school and will do the same for the little one when he goes. She is paid well in the new job but helping her gives me a link home and maintains the bond between her and I. Living in the USA you are in a “me culture,” you meet no one of other classes, unless like me you do volunteer work – I do it in prisons with those convicted of the most serious crimes. I hate this narcissistic way of living, I was far happier in South Africa where every single day if I chose I could make a positive difference in the life of someone else.
In the USA, racism is a far bigger issue than in South Africa, the cops shoot young black men with impunity, most of those incarcerated are black (and so when I am in groups in prisons I feel at home, outside it is so white). People either patronize each other or are angry with the other. I not only – as a SA – move easier in diverse groups, I am most comfortable in them.
So the admins of the “staying group” are mostly white – well why don’t we have a public lynching then? Which is what this thread is. They are people trying to do something positive, trying to lift the veil of despair and ages-deep trauma in South Africa. Any effort to do that is a good thing, is it flawed, hell yes … but then you finger-pointers, instead of feeling so self-satisfied, go and do something better. Get your asses off Facebook into the community and start helping to change things, run for public office, we need non-corrupt individuals (and I hope that is what you all are), South Africa needs caring people in the workplace who pay better (and if you want to experience hair-raising bullying, come to the USA, you have no idea of how awful people can be in the workplace and how they fire for no reason and can get away with it). We need employers who help illiterate or semi-literate (and that’s what most will be with the current education system) navigate injustices whether in accessing the courts, finding decent accommodation, or with medical care.
There is a lot that is awful about South Africa, but a lot that is very good – and all of the goodness is within the people.
Instead of destroying, start being creative, take all your ideas, apply them to something good, tolerate the other, only narcissists want everyone to be like them, and rebuild our country, it is dying and you by your endless self-satisfied criticism are slaughtering it. As Gandhi said: “be the change you want to see.” Or as my beloved friend and mentor, Nelson Mandela said, “make friends of your enemies.”
But please, for God’s sake, cut the self-satisfied lynching.
Hi Charlene, thank you for your comments. A lot of assumptions in there though when questions might be a better way to go. The majority of people in the Conversations for a Just South Africa group started out in #ImStaying because we wanted a positive and hopeful space. But when we found that this was to be at the expense of any serious work we left, and if you are calling for spaces not to be critiqued then i will definitely disagree with you there. If apartheid was never critiqued we would still have it. There were people who knew that we needed to change and so fought for it.
You are completely right that if these conversations remain in the online space they are fruitless – i try to strike a balance between the online stuff, between some values that my wife and i have [like recycling, eating organically, reducing our meat consumption, money we give to individuals, families and organisations] and then actual lived out change [which largely happens through two non-profits that work in the education space] and this is essential – the heart of the Conversations group is conversation that leads to action. Whereas #ImStaying focuses on positivity above all else. i do have hope that many of the people in there are already doing good things and will discover good things to do but the major hope is that the organisers will see how vital the difficult conversations are and the move towards action and how it needs to happen urgently and soon and not in a few months or years once they’ve built their thing.
Also you are commenting as someone from outside the country which i think is relevant to keep in mind. i lived in America for three years and am so grateful for the way that experience shaped a lot of my understanding in terms of race and a lot of the things you mentioned.
But #ImStaying does need to be critiqued else it is in danger of being the biggest group of feel-gooders the country has ever seen while the country continues to burn… we are all hoping for more than that, some of us are just saying it a bit louder.
Have a great day
Brett Fish
I would say…discernment..discerning the essence..the feel of something. Is it good or is it bad. You can feel hate..you can feel hope. You can feel repentance, you can feel authenticity. SA is all about that. Imstaying has been a refreshing feel that has blown over social media which has life giving unity as an ingredient..may it be the leaven that influences the whole loaf.
i would more strongly suggest the fruit of a thing – is it producing good feelings or will there be significant change as a result of it? May be too early to tell but i have my reservations based on a lot of posts shared [i definitely believe there will be some good fruit no doubt but not enough for the potential it carries…]
Your thoughts on that?
Of course one of the more irritating aspects of the group is the virtue signalling, which as woke graduates, why wouldn’t we take the opportunity to look down our noses at. Yes, when we do virtue signalling we double down (the worst thing my black friends can say to me is you’re not like the rest of them…)
I guess I am being needlessly provocative, but it is an unfortunate feature of current cultural debate that everything has to be so binary, is either good or bad. Sure the group isn’t perfect, and of course there are cringe worthy and problematic posts. Surely though it is better that the everyman described by Adrian Fleur (posting from the USA-irony unacknowledged) is at least is getting some other perspective, hearing other people’s experiences and committing to some sort of positive vision, however superficial. It has to be better for him or her than the alternative echo chamber that Fleur describes.
They are not dangerous or hateful, and surely people are brought along in metres not always in miles. Not everyone is going to be making a list of 40 ways to improve our country, and mores the pity for it (and even more so if something comes of your list), but it does seem petty to be subjecting a more-positive-than-negative experiment, so early in its life, to the kind of moral superiority that your (almost exclusively white…) audience and yourself seem so intent on inflicting.
After all, even from your perspective, surely much good has already come of it, given that it has provoked you to be having your own conversation. Can’t be any harm in them having theirs, maybe you will even get some otherwise unlikely recruits…