had lunch with a friend of mine who doesn’t ‘go to church’ any more…
i know, i know, i should have been spending the whole meal challenging him about how important it is and how pathetically self-focused he is being and something something about the body of Christ and all that… but i was too busy finding the encounter so refreshing.
you see, Bill [let’s call him that – i know how friendly you okes can be to people who ‘don’t go to church’] is a guy who i have never even met before – when i was in a tax crisis a few years ago he volunteered his services and basically swooped in and saved the day and really helped me out – somehow we had become Facebook friends somewhere along the line and when he saw a need, he responded. i am so grateful he did.
one thing Bill told me is that he is tired of the nonsense of religiosity – he has been struggling with how church has been done and christianity lived out [or not lived out to be more precise] for years and is at the point of i want to be either fully in or fully out – i either believe completely or i walk away from this thing… but i can’t walk away cos i completely know in myself that this stuff is true.
having chatted to some mates of his they started meeting regularly [i think it’s on a sunday so they’re probably okay, even though the original ‘sunday’ wasn’t even a sunday, right?] and they eat together and pray together and share and do life and grow and are challenged and it sounds pretty churchlike to me [although they might need to work a little on their ‘church politics’ cos i’m not sure they’re fighting enough about that]
also he discovered this book that he has been reading [to the exclusion of all other books right now] which he has said has completely revolutionised his faith and helped him to really start believing again – the book’s name? the bible. no surprises there. but Bill has started hungrily devouring that book and his eyes have been opened in so many ways and you can just hear and see the life in him as he really seems to be grasping [or on the way to grasping] what this following Jesus thing is all about, largely for the first time – man, it was an exciting lunch for me…
WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE DON?
this past week, Donald Miller [author of ‘Blue Like Jazz’ and other books and part of the Storyling blog which is helping people tell their stories well] confessed via Twitter and his blog, that he doesn’t often go to church in a post titled, ‘I don’t worship God by singing, I connect with Him elsewhere’ – it did not go down so well.
in fact, his follow up tweet read like this: Blogged about not going to church today. More shame and guilt @replies than I’ve ever received on twitter. I feel immense forgiveness.
in his follow-up blog titled, ‘Why I don’t go to church very often, a follow up blog’, he responded to a lot of the comments and feedback he received [a lot of which had missed his original point].
what i did not hear Don say was that he doesn’t want to be part of a community that gathers together and strengthen each other in the living out of the bible – what i believe he was reacting against was the idea that church is this particular meeting that takes place on that particular day at that particular place.
and i agree with him – for too long i have felt that the traditional description of what church is, is way too small. Church is a lot of the things that a lot of people see church as being. But i believe it is also a lot more.
this paragraph from Don Miller’s blog i found particularly interesting [and so largely true]
Neither am I arguing the current model should change. Millions are fed weekly through these kinds of programs. What I’m arguing is that nobody should be faulted for creating something different. Those who would argue “we shouldn’t simply create the church in our own image” forget it already has been created in our own image. First the image of the royal government then the image of the university or school and then big business and now moving toward the entertainment industry. The church has always been recreated in the image of the dominant institution in society. For the early church, that was the family. For our culture, it’s business and education and entertainment.
CHURCH IS AS CHURCH DOES
am i suggesting we should stop traditional church? absolutely not. what i am saying is that maybe it is not the best thing for everyone. and for us to look at other models of church and decide they are not biblical when our one may not be particularly biblical either feels just a little bit rich. and unhelpful. and maybe not all that true.
what is and has and may continue to be the problem for so long is that so much focus is put by so many people on the sunday meeting when i’m pretty sure that is NOT what it is meant to be about – it is meant to be about loving God and loving people and making disciples and looking after the least of these [starting with the church but really paying good attention to widows and orphans as well in there] and spreading forgiveness and pointing people towards Jesus [and the majority of those people will not easily step into a sunday church meeting building – and why would they? weird stuff happens there – but they might step into a lounge, or stand around a braai, or hang out on the beach]
church is God’s people doing God’s stuff in the world. that really feels like a better definition to me than ‘that meeting at that place on that day.’
i’m pretty sure that Jesus did not die so that we could meet on a week to week basis in a building [ESPECIALLY if our lives outside of that building are not going to reflect it at all or enough]
and this conversation needs to be a much l0nger one because there are so many different angles to it [and i believe Don raised some good ones] – community is important as is accountability as is teaching and learning and serving and discipleship and communion sharing [but i love that my wife tbV gravitates so much more strongly to the idea of an actual meal for this than a quick sip and a dip although i think both can be valid and beautiful] and mission [both near and far] and so much more…
# when we say church is this meeting that happens in that place on that day, then we say anything else cannot be church [i don’t buy that!]
# when we call organisations who are made up of God’s people doing God’s stuff ‘para-church’ organisations as in ‘outside of church’ or ‘not church’ then i don’t buy that – if church is defined as either the body or the bride of Christ then para-church organisations that are doing kingdom things fit into that.
# when the majority of the money that is given to the church is spent on buildings and things and the people who work in the church and so little of it is given out to the work and mission of the church outside of those who already believe, then i’m not quite convinced we have found the best way of doing it yet.
and more. this whole thing feels so much bigger than a lot of what we’ve made it and if we continue to hold on so tightly and rigidly to the current model we have then we may miss out, not so much on ‘the new thing God is wanting to do’ but more directly i think on the old thing He was always calling us to be.
so Bill, keep on my friend – you were an inspiration to me today and i look forward to connecting more and wrestling over this church thing together and i think so much of what you were saying and are feeling is completely on track – it’s not going to be easy and so many people are just not going to understand… but as long as you are looking to the Bible as your guide book and surrounding yourself with other Jesus-following people and calling out to Him and continuing to live a life that shines light and is salt and leaves behind the fragrance of Christ… well, all i can say is you are gunning for the right audient, keep on.
Be encouraged by Hebrews 12:
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
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“community is important as is accountability as is teaching and learning and serving and discipleship and communion sharing” – agreed and great. But what about Leadership (and it’s counter part “submission”)? Our western selfish culture prizes individual autonomy and rejects leadership, this is why people like Don may have good criticism’s of current church trends but with their language and ideas always force the conversation to be an either/or when it reality should be both/and.
Hey there. Found this post by way of your comment over at Christianity Today.
I address this question on my own blog (read it here, if you want), but I think you and Don — and nearly all Protestants, really — are making a bit of an equivocation mistake here. I absolutely agree that “being the Church” and “going to Church” are two different things (and Catholics are right to distinguish between the Church and the Mass); it doesn’t follow, though, that one is unnecessary for the other. Jesus called us out of the world to do his work, but it is through the church service (the Mass, if you will…) that he strengthens us to be able to do that work. He doesn’t call us his slaves, after all — he calls us his sheep and commands the Church to feed us (John 21:17).
hey Luke – really appreciate you taking the time to come and comment and just went and read your blog post and wrote a response there which i didn’t feel like writing all over again so here is a cut and paste:
hm, i appreciate this post and the heart behind it but as with everything i’ve read on why Don Miller is such a naughty naughty boy, i am yet to read something that comes close to convincing me… and don’t get me wrong – i absolutely love the church – my dad was a pastor [uh oh] and i pretty much grew up in the church and despite not particularly wanting to follow in his footsteps, studied as a primary school teacher and then completely worked and lived and ministered in the church in every kind of way imaginable [or a bunch at least] – i am currently working for a non-profit organisation but a few months ago started working part time at my local church where we have loved being a part of the community – i think Sunday church is amazing and good and fine and well…
but i think the church is bigger than that – and i think you read my post on that: http://brettfish.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/im-pretty-sure-jesus-didnt-die-so-you-could-meet-once-a-week-in-a-building which was written while i was in South Africa recently and so didn’t have enough space and time to fully go through everything i wanted to say so maybe i will need to write some more soon… but i see the definition of church [as i think Don does to a similiar extent] at God’s people gathered to do God’s things – that seems to more fully describe Jesus’ ministry than once-a-week-in-a-building does and also Paul’s and also the early churches… as for not being fed well there is just so much more opportunity to be fed at home [with books, the internet. podcasts etc] than there is at a sunday service and when i was pastoring a vineyard church back in South Africa i would hope that people would use their week to be fed so that they came on Sundays to encourage and pray for and build up and serve [because feeding had already been taken care of]
and more. but i just think church is so much bigger than simply those people meeting in that place at that specific time – and i think you do – and i think so does Don – i just think we aren’t hearing or completely ‘getting’ each other on this…
but i love your heart and passion as i see it in this post and if i have to describe my passion in life i say ‘mobilising the church to live out what we say we believe’ – some of that happens inside the building but the majority of it happens outside of the walls of my local sunday meeting place for absolutely sure.
and hopefully yours too
keep on
love brett fish
I think you’ve missed something significant by making the word “church” a synonym for “people of God”. The word ἐκκλησία means ‘assembly’, or ‘gathering’. In the Greek Lexicon, Louw-Nida describe the term this way: “The term ἐκκλησία was in common usage for several hundred years before the Christian era and was used to refer to an assembly of persons constituted by well- defined membership… For the NT it is important to understand the meaning of ἐκκλησία as ‘an assembly of God’s people.’ In the rendering of ἐκκλησία a translator must beware of using a term which refers primarily to a building rather than to a congregation of believers. In many contexts ἐκκλησία may be readily rendered as ‘gathering of believers’ or ‘group of those who trust in Christ.’”
This is significant, especially when we begin to look closer at Paul’s usage:
1 Cor. 1:2 (2 Cor. 2:1), τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ οὔσῃ ἐν Κορίνθῳ… “to the church of God which is in Corinth…”
1 Th. 1:1 (2 Th. 1:1), τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ Θεσσαλονικέων ἐν θεῷ, “to the gathering composed of Thessalonians in God”
Gal. 1:13, τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεου, “to the gathering belonging to God
1 Cor. 15:9, τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεοῦ, “to the community of God”
Gal. 1:22, ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις τῆς Ἰουδαίας ταῖς ἐν Χριστῷ, “to the community of Judeans who are in Christ”
Paul has to qualify and describe which gathering he is talking about, since in the ancient world the word ἐκκλησία can refer to many different kinds of gatherings. Paul is specifically talking about people who gather that belong to God, or are in Christ. But key to all of this is the idea of GATHERING together. ἐκκλησία is therefore not a synonym for “people of God” it is rather a description of Christians who meet together in a specific location, and are an identifiable group.
A few implications follow from this. The phrase “we are the Church” is misleading because that is only true when we gather together. Secondly, not every gathering is specifically a gathering around Christ, ordinary fellowship (at a party or a cafe for example) should not be confused with Christian gathering/Church. The marks of a Christian gathering are: worship, fellowship, edification, and encounter resulting in mission (1 Cor. 14:26; Col. 3:16). Without these key ingredients, it is not specifically a Christian gathering. Now of course, how often we have each of these ingredients, and in what order we have these elements is completely up to the specific community in question, but if these never appear, then we’ve wandered from a biblical vision of Christian community.
I encourage Christians to explore alternative models of Christian gathering and community. But we need to hold on to key biblical elements. Random catch ups with various connections where there is no accountablity and no sustained commitment to one another and the exercising of the key elements listed above, can hardly be described as church. Just count how many times the phrase “one another” is used in the New Testament and see what elements each “one another” comissions us towards and you’ll catch a beautiful glimpse of what Christian community is all about.
Bless ya bro.
Well buddy, appreciate your words and thoughts but I don’t think I have missed that – unless the translation is ‘gathering of those people in that place on that day’ – because I am still completely in favor of the gathering, but think it doesn’t necessarily only have to look like the particular way people today are doing it. Or are you suggesting that the way traditional church happens today is largely similar to how it happened in shortly after Jesus times? Cos I imagine it has changed and adapted and evolved through the years which is good and right and fine.
Hey bro, thanks for the response. What I’m suggesting you’ve missed is your (common, but mistaken) equation of “people of God” with “gathered people of God”. The word “Church” refers to gathered Christians. Without the gathering together of Christians (which implies the same time and place), there is no church.
I’m not suggesting that the translation is: ‘gathering of those people in that place on that day’. But I think that is the clear implication. Early Christianity universally changed their day of celebration/meeting from the Saturday to the Sunday to commemorate the risen Jesus. Christians gathered together at the same time – the earliest evidence suggests twice on Sundays (before dawn and then in the evening for a meal).
Thus, I’m critical of the idea that one can belong to the “church” without gathering regularly with the same Christians at a specifed time and place for worship, fellowship, edification and encounter. That’s what I’m missing from Miller’s thoughts on this matter.
cool man, appreciate your thoughts and words and greek [previous response was on my tablet which is why it was so short] but at the same time if you are implying or assuming that i was ever saying don’t gather or there shouldn’t be gathering, then you have missed the point i am trying to make – i am suggesting that gathering might happen elsewhere like the house church vibe which might in some ways look more authentic as communion can actually happen around a meal which was the original context and even intention perhaps as opposed to a quick dip and a sip although i do see the value in both but actually feel like a meal and breaking bread and sharing thoughts on scripture and maybe some song or meditation or reflection by a group of people regularly constitutes church for me… an organisation like the warehouse or scripture union that are called ‘para church’ but have gatherings of people and reading of scripture and worship and mission often look a lot more like church than what we would traditionally call church and yet we name them less than or outside of church…
i feel like what Jesus did was a demonstration of the idea of the church that i am talking/thinking about – sometimes meeting in small groups, sometimes in bigger groups, sometimes with the crowd and sometimes in the religious institutional building and sometimes on a hillside – i think all of it He would have called His church in terms of those who had chosen to follow Him at least – perhaps the synagogue he would have referred to as para church or not church at all as they seemed to be the people who understood the concept of the kingdom the least…
what is the body of Christ? is it not those who are living out what Jesus’ body would be doing if it was physically around on earth [God’s people doing God’s stuff?] and the bride of Christ? is it not those who are closely attached/covenanted/married to Christ who are doing the things of Christ?
what about Sunday institutions that meet and ‘do worship’ and celebrate and ‘do communion’ etc etc but aren’t involved in any of the mission of the church? [making disciples and baptising them and teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded, forgiving each other, looking after the least of these etc etc] – you are suggesting that those ‘churches’ are more church than those who are living out the mission of the church on a daily basis and meeting together in homes and actually living out the stuff and breaking actual bread around a meal… that doesn’t make sense and feels more like a ‘Lord, Lord we attended the sunday meeting and looked like church’ – while there are many sunday church congregations that do God’s work and mission i would say that in the western church at least there are many who don’t – who go to watch or maybe partake in the show and throw their money in the plate so that someone else can actually live out the mission of the church on their behalf…
Sean, do you have this idea anywhere else, such as a blog? I like your take, it seems like the best explanation I have found so far on this topic.
Thanks for the reply Renee. The word ἐκκλησία can refer to a variety of gatherings and can be used in varied senses. The book of Acts is a good case book of the various uses of the word which can be illustrated by the following:
1. a regularly summoned legislative body, assembly, as generally understood in the Graeco-Roman world. An example of this would be Acts 19:39, “If there is anything further you want to know, it must be settled in the regular assembly.”
2. a casual gathering of people, an assemblage, gathering. A good example of this is Acts 19:32, “Meanwhile, some were shouting one thing, some another; for the gathering was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together.”
3. people with shared belief, community, congregation. One could break this up into two further categories.
3a) of a specific Christian group assembly, gathering ordinarily involving worship and discussion of matters of concern to the community. Mt 18:17, “If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the gathered community; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the gathered community, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” The references in 1 Cor 14:4, 12, 19, 28, 35, all refer to a specific gathering of Christians together.
3b) congregation or church as the totality of Christians living and meeting in a particular locality or larger geographical area, but not necessarily limited to one meeting place. An example of this would include Ac 5:11, “And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things.” Or Acts 8:3; “But Saul was ravaging the church by entering house after house; dragging off both men and women, he committed them to prison.” This last one is not as convincing, as it could be classified as 3a.
3c) the global community of Christians, (universal) church. Acts 9:31, “Meanwhile the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers.”
I think it’s wise for people to clarify in what way they’re using the word ἐκκλησία/church because of these varieties of ways the word can be used in Scripture. I also think that locking onto one specific idea/definition of church and then trying to read that back into every occurrence of the word found in Scripture is unhelpful and potentially dangerous. I think my point to Brett was simply that “being together” is a key component of a Christian understanding of Church, and that if you read through the New Testament (and early Christian literature) there are non-negotiable aspects that define a specifically Christian gathering: worship, fellowship, edification and then two others which occur semi-regularly are mission and meals. All of our historical data concerning Christian gatherings note these key elements of worship, fellowship and edification. And without them I’m not sure it can be categorized as a “Christian” gathering, as opposed to just an ordinary gathering of people. I do hope that makes some sense. Let me know if I can clarify.
Take care, Sean.
Would it be fair to say that your understood definition of church as gathering is a little closer to an assumed supposition based on looking at how things seemed to have been and a couple of verses that encourage gathering to be a key element as opposed to a ‘thou shalt meet once a week’ type obvious and directly stated command like a “love your enemies” or “forgive everyone” kind of directive that seems a lot more obvious and directly stated?
No, it’s more like reading the parable of the prodigal son and concluding it’s about forgiveness and reconciliation. Those words are not used, but the narrative is clear and so is the inference drawn from the narrative. Early Christian literature, both the New Testament and beyond, and the evidence of Pliny the Younger give us narrative evidence that is instructive. A theological understanding of church is that it is the gathered people of God for worship, fellowship and edification. Two further elements are also regularly included, namely food and then less frequently, mission.
To take away the sense of “gathering” would make word incomprehensible in its ancient context. Remove the sense of “gathering” from a New Testament understanding and it makes no sense.
How about body and bride in the original Greek? Are they a single or plural understanding?
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