On Saturday 22 April, 2017, a million South Africans met in Bloemfontein to pray for South Africa. Or three hundred thousand. Or closer to 2 million. Depending who you ask. People of all races, ages and genders. Or majority white afrikaans middle class people. Again, difficult to say.
Let’s get this straight from the start – this is not a popularity piece – writing on another such polarized/polarising event in South Africa is very likely to piss people off on both sides. But i do believe there are some important aspects that we really do need to think about and wrestle with, and i hope this will in part help us to do so.
People i greatly and deeply respect thought that Saturday was a truly amazing, incredible thing:
My very good friend Dalene Reyburn shares her thoughts on the #ItsTime prayer.
A prayer meeting doesn’t make a nation. Day after day after day of love, integrity, wisdom, courage, justice, generosity, selflessness and togetherness, makes a nation.
But man, I think praying for a day is a fantastic way to start.
My friend Julie Patrick was at the prayer meeting and shared her positive thoughts and some stunning pictures:
The biggest question is: where to from here? Well, our call is to mobilise. Mobilise as the Church and as a nation. We have a lot to do. Some are saying: Why spend so much money, time and energy on a prayer meeting when our country has so many basic needs? It’s a good question, and there are many answers to it. I think one answer would be: if about a million people are back in their homes right now transformed, restored, full of hope and full of joy, then they will change the environment around them. They will change the way they live. There will be a ripple effect on families, entire sphere of influences and beyond. As was said at the meeting: It only took twelve disciples of Jesus to change the world. We are 1,700,000. Let’s see what happens now!
People i greatly and deeply respect thought that Saturday was probably not a truly amazing, incredible thing:
A friend of mine who i respect so very much, Lorenzo Davids, shares his message to the people who gathered to pray.
In this vein I have been pondering the multiple missed opportunities by the Christian beneficiaries of apartheid to show the change they profess they have undergone. It’s simply not there on the scale required to be worthy of the Christian community in this country. If the people praying in Bloemfontein showed a bias towards a profound pouring of social and economic justice, and place causes like the plight of the black student and the poor at the centre of their repentance, I would gladly write the organisers a public letter of apology.
But Bloemfontein will be like Newlands and Ellis Park – pray, pray, pray and then continue the practices of injustice towards other citizens such as the poor, women, the LGBT community, black students etc. But in God’s eyes it’s not the justice that we do to our brother or sister that counts. It’s the justice we do to the stranger, the one who hates us and to the one who is not like us, that counts.
[Just for some context, Lorenzo was one of the key mediators recently in #FeesMustFall negotiations between students and universities – he has been on the front lines and this is not simply some armchair critique. Lorenzo is a passionate and positive person who is making a huge difference in South Africa]
Another friend of mine, Graeme Codrington writes this incredible, gracious, hope-filled invitational piece that is well-worth reading:
I won’t go into the many ways this passage has been abused in the past, including pointing out that it is the second half of a sentence, and that it comes in the middle of a consecration of a Temple with many other instructions attached to it. Let’s just focus on what these words themselves say. We are not just called to prayer. We called to sort our lives out, to humble ourselves, to seek God and to turn from wickedness.
I strongly support the desire Christians had to pray for our country. And I strongly support any group of people gathering together to commit themselves to good and to God. But the big question, 48 hours later, is “now what?” What happens next.
And because of that, perhaps it was a little bit of both. Something you are going to hear me going on and on and on about until some more of us start really getting it, is the notion of choosing to embrace a BOTH/AND over an often more destructive either/or.
So many people seem to be refusing to critique the event, which i find deeply problematic. i can critique the movie ‘Guardians of the Galaxy’ for example and my conclusion will be that it WAS AMAZING! Critique doesn’t mean criticism – it may lead to criticism, but it isn’t inherently criticism in itself. A lot of people are really not getting that. This irks me, as does the fact that it just made me use the word ‘irks’ in a sentence. Twice!
Let me also say that this piece is written specifically for christians as this was a christian event and i am a follower of Jesus. i am more than happy for others to read it and comment as well if they choose.
IF MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME
Let me start with some positives, because i believe they were there.
# The church gathering in huge numbers. i think in and of itself this is an amazing thing. And with all the questions i have about the who and how and why and everything that follows this, i still think that hundreds of thousands of people [with good intentions, i believe for the most part that the majority of people who went to this thing went with the best of intentions] gathering and calling on God is a great opportunity for God to respond to that and change hearts and transform lives and i do honestly look forward to hearing and seeing some of how that took place.
# A call to repentance. Apparently that is how the meeting started and while i may have some issues with a white-led meeting of this magnitude in South Africa at this time, a white man calling majority white people to repentance is a great thing.
# People mobilised to say it’s time to do something. While, in many ways, this feels like 23 years too late, we can’t go back and change time and so instead of this taking another day, month, year or decade to happen, we have to celebrate in some way that people have finally gotten around to the idea of #ItsTime
For me the biggest plus of Saturday’s prayer thing is that around the country for whatever reasons, there were a million plus people calling out to God. Regardless of intention or misstep or anything that could possibly be criticised about that in any way, i do believe that God is bigGER and that He works in this way:
‘And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose…’ [Romans 8.28]
So regardless of anything, if people are calling out to God and God answers and people respond, there is huge potential for Saturday to have been a positive thing or the start of a very positive thing.
PROBLEMATIC BEGINNINGS
There were however some issues that i and others had with the event and i think it’s important to consider them at least:
# Before the event happened, there was a statement Angus Buchan made which caused a lot of people concern:
Cancel every other meeting and make sure you are there. I really believe this is the last chance that we will have in South Africa to bring normality back to this beloved nation. [Angus Buchan]
Some people have tried to define what Angus meant, but i don’t think that is very relevant. Words are important and what is more important is the message that was heard. The questions that are raised are: What does normality mean? Normal for who? It has certainly never been normal for black and coloured and indian people in this country, so are we talking normal for white people?
Maybe it was just a poor choice of words and that’s fine – we all make mistakes. But at the same time, those of you who are defending Angus in this, need to realise that his poor choice of words caused a lot of people pain, as well as confusion as to what exactly he was calling for.
The message that is received is actually far more important than the message intended and in that i believe he got it wrong.
# The venue was problematic for a lot of people, for different reasons. The kind of costs involved in travelling to Bloemfontein from other parts of the country immediately cut off the majority of the population [except where sponsorship was possible] which resulted in it being majority white [i honestly don’t know the exact make-up of the crowds but 51% white feels quite safe] because the money in South Africa is still majority white. So access was a problem. Holding this event on a white farmer’s property in a country where land is such a contentious issue for the dispossessed was problematic, although it could have been the opportunity for a hugely prophetic moment if a number of white farmers had publicly committed then and there to get creative with their land in ways that invited previously dispossessed people to participate with them in bringing about change. i don’t believe that happened? And so holding the event at a place that is a symbol of pain [whether you agree or disagree with why it is] for so many people feels insensitive.
# The #ItsTime name and nature of the event was hugely problematic. It’s not time. It is LONG OVERDUE. We have not moved enough in the direction of those who were previously horrifically disadvantaged and brutalised by law and still in many ways by structure and system and in so many hearts still around the country.
All of the same criticism that was levelled at people who chose to make the recent #AntiZumaMarch their first act of protest or their first march fits in here. [While at the same time celebrating that okay you all finally got to it, but what is going to be next?]
THOUGHTS GOING FORWARD
# The reporting of the number of people who attended. While the number of people who attended didn’t feel like such a big deal to me [clearly from pictures you can see there were a LOT of people] a conversation on the way to the airport changed that. And having seen a few posts where people have been challenging the idea that there were a million or two people there [some by showing concerts that had way less people but looked way bigger] it seems like there were not. It’s a matter of honesty and integrity, which with something as quantifiable as numbers should be fairly easy to get right’ish, which will affect credibility of everything else you put out.
# Fruit. This is the bottom line for me. You will be known by your fruit. So we can’t fully arrive at the success or failure of this event until we observe the fruit. And i am honestly looking forward to stories that come out of this event. If millions of people around the country had a life-transforming encounter with God then lives will be changed. So there will be ripples and with an event this big, we should be expecting those ripples to be noticeable. So maybe the best thing we can do is visit this all again in three months time and look back at what has taken place.
When thousands gathered together for the Passion Worship event in Cape Town, i wrote a piece that did not go down well with a lot of people. i felt like i gave the event a fair critique, speaking of some of the positives and some of the negatives i had experienced. i received a fairly emphatic backlash. i have yet to hear of a single story of change that came out of that event that was specifically linked to that event. Which doesn’t mean at all that nothing happened, but certainly that nothing happened which rippled itself in my direction. But this is a million plus people [if we take into account all those who prayer around the country who didn’t attend]. So can we agree to look back in three months and speak about the ripples that have moved through our land?
We recently hosted the Justice Conference in Cape Town [maybe a thousand people in total] and a month later i could tell you many stories of ripples. We stayed with a family in Durban where someone quit her job and they decided to move linked to decisions made at the conference. We connected with some powerful women who made contact via Justice Conference related conversations who are now working together on an exciting project. We held dinner conversations that were largely brought together based on time and relationships linked to the Justice Conference. So i have no doubt that the Justice Conference has already made and is making a difference. And that was just a thousand people. So we should be excited to see what happens when it’s a million or more. It is the fruit that comes out of this event that will speak to the effectiveness of it.
# We have to embrace critique. i have no problem with people disagreeing with me. But it has felt like so many people have simply refused to engage with any critique or criticism at all. Phrases like “Can’t we just focus on the positives?” and “How can people praying with a bad thing?” do not seem to give any time at all to, “Should we take a moment to weigh up any negatives there might be?” and waiting around to hear the answer to “How can people praying be a bad thing?”
People who thought this was an amazing event need to really listen to those who didn’t, especially many who felt hurt by aspects of this event. People who thought this was not a great idea need to really listen to those who attended and thought it was great and try to really hear and see the positives they felt and experienced. And then we reform our opinions. Maybe in some cases it was a BOTH/AND as opposed to an either/or. Maybe it was in some ways a bad idea and yet a whole lot of good still came from it. Maybe there were some problematic statements made before the event and even during the event but at the same time there was a call to repentance and maybe that will stick. Maybe it was an amazing time of God’s people gathering together but we can realise that a lot of people were excluded from getting there with money and time being factors and maybe we can think more deeply through that. Maybe we can all acknowledge that even the polarisation around various comments and opinions with regards to this event shows us that it is definitely WAY BEYOND TIME.
And let’s look forward to the fruit…
Seriously, just go read Lorenzo’s article though:
Jesus encountered about four or five wealthy men (yep, it had to be men) according to the Gospel records.
On another day I will write in detail about what those encounters reveal about radical economic transformation. Because radical economic transformation is actually a Biblical concept.The rich man who wanted to inherit eternal life had to give half of his possessions to the poor. That’s radical economic transformation.
The rich man who threw scraps at the poor man Lazarus ended up in hell for his treatment of the poor man. That’s radical economic transformation.
The rich man who proudly gave some money to the temple and felt quite proud about his gift vs the value of the gift given by the poor woman, was pointed out as one who is giving way too little. That’s radical economic transformation.
One of the other famous rich man encounters is with a wealthy Jewish tax collector who was a self-confessed crook on a Gupta-like self-enrichment scheme. He benefitted extra-ordinarily from a system where he charged a basic tax as per his Roman employers criteria and then was free to add on any additional sums for anything he wished to make off that. At random. His exploitation knew no bounds and was legendary. When he encounters the forgiveness of Jesus – in fact, the full embrace of acceptance of his humanity by Jesus – he does what the Christian beneficiaries of apartheid had failed to do: He says: “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” Talk about Radical Economic Transformation!
Very challenging post. Well written, thought provoking and action provoking – thank you so much Brett, for truly listening to both opinions and leading by example in humility. Both you and your wife are an inspiration in many ways.
I decided to research Angus’s statement about having 27 adopted children, and he really does have a children’s home in Greytown. All are from disadvantaged backgrounds. So I’m not sure what his definition of “normality” is but it certainly isn’t pre-1994. That video should have been proofed and changed though. The wording was an unfortunate mistake in the context of our country’s history. I agree with needing to critique the event. I agree that much could have been done differently. I was aware on the day. I even battled to worship when I saw there were no black worship leaders. But to give Shalom and their team the benefit of the doubt: they created an event in 6 weeks that would normally have taken over a year to organise. The smooth logistics of the day was a miracle in itself. Then as you said, God is bigger than people’s mistakes and I believe He did more than we’ll ever know on Saturday.
The prayer time was powerful. It’s hard to explain it to those who weren’t there. I am choosing to hope. I am hoping the rich who attended will be changed for life, and begin to empower the poor in more ways than just monetary donations. I am hoping the poor who attended and didn’t know God before, will know Him now. I have a long way to go in my own thinking and actions too. Learning more each day.
Hi Brett, well thought out and very true, we must embrace critique as it doesn’t automatically mean criticism. But, we need to think and if we need to weigh up the criticism and adjust our actions going forward, then so be it.
I responded to Lorenzo’s post here https://thefatherheart.org/2017/04/23/in-defence-of-its-time-but-we-must-act/#more-2089.
However, at the risk of sounding too emotionally connected with the day and not objective enough, it does sadden me that so much of what I have read and listened too has been quite negative/scathing/critical about the potential ripple effects of the day, and none of the sources have been non-Christian folks.
That’s not to say that simply because we agree more or less theologically, that we must now keep quiet for risk of offending those who enjoyed their Saturday afternoon.
Ironically, we were encouraged to quote Paul when faced with criticism about the state of the country by declaring “But God” as an encouragement that He will have the final say, but I feel convicted to be using this phrase mostly towards fellow believers, who base their positions on their own opinions or others, even though neither persons’ opinion is based on actual experience on the day.
I really trust and hope for a change in people that will be attributed to the day. But if nothing else, the day will stand in my memory as a time where I joined a million or so people in praying for this country, crying out to God for help and salvation, because at the core that’s what the day was, a prayer meeting.
In response to your last point, i don’t think that is true and i would encourage you to find some black Christian folk who didn’t go who felt hurt by the event and spend some time listening to them and hearing some of their pain, because i think it is relevant and if we are going to just completely dismiss it because of the feel good vibe that we encountered then i strongly suspect we might be missing something…
as a partaker on saturday, reading your critique is intersting…you did challenge my thinking but not in a way you’d probably want. i absolutely agree with you in that the fruit is the true test and we shall wait and see what changed in the heart of people. but to dismiss the efficiancy and effectiveness of such an event because you do not experience the ripples is also a bit sketchy.
firstly I cannot believe you would connect this event to race the way you did, as christians there are no more slave or free, barbarian or greek, jew or gentile, but all fall under one identity in Christ. we are one body. yes there were those who could not go becsuse of finances and distance etc. but no matter where it would have been held this would have been an issue.
to be challenged and unable to worship or struggle to give your all to God in worship because the band is white shows me that you are missing the heart of worship. we were there for God, to worship God and now what is being said is that God is not worthy of wholehearted worship because there was not a black man on the stage, and this event was not all about God because it was on a white man’s farm.
while this article is insightful it does not allow for space to live dout the gospel, why not be defrauded, why not be rediculed, turn the other cheek, if a man forces you to go one mile, go two, give even your last to the one who asks. love your neighbour. these points are missed because you remind us why wecannot forgive the past mistakes or the history of our country and move forward in unity with our minds stayed on Christ. Yes people aren’t perfect, we make mistakes and still God uses us.
and honestly are you telling me that you as a godly man cannot tell what angus meant with normality?? using the word of God as a guideline for a christian normality will be living in the love of God to the extent of utter humiliation before man, yet exhultation before God.
over a million people came together in unity to pray, to seek God. and people get caught up in if it was a good idea or politically correct?!?! my goodness man
Jman, you are welcome to your opinion, but this comment shows a lack of deeper thought on some things.
God calls us – in the greatest commandment – to love Him with among other things all of our MIND… God wants us to think about these things – look at how the Bereans were commended in Acts 17 for every day wrestling with scripture to see if what the disciples were preaching was true…
i did not dismiss the event purely on the basis of seeing ripples – i am saying that is how we will see if it was effective or not – there was a huge repentance/confession time apparently and if lives were not changed [ripples] then that will be proved to not have been anything, right?
Secondly if an event is put in a place that only wealthy people can travel to because of finance [for the most part] that is problematic… if all the songs sung were in Zulu or Xhosa i imagine you might have a lot more to say about the worship but because it was your language, no worries… that is not love in action – love is making sure that the majority of people can receive the message, understand the message and be able to celebrate at least part of it in their own language – as followers of Jesus we shouldn’t be seeing what minimum we can get away with [deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him] but how much we can step towards others as Jesus did His whole life, including them, welcoming them listening to them…
Words matter – not so much what you mean as what is heard – many of my black friends heard Angus ‘call to normal’ as a call to the way things used to be which was both not normal and horrific for the majority of them – if you want to “my goodness” then “my goodness” that – as a leader in a diverse country, there is the need to do better and Angus got that one wrong and will hopefully learn from it…
Your lack of critique ends up being a lack of love for the many people who are still hurting in this country because of the past and the present that has been created by it and then also the lack of understanding or even attempts at understanding by people like you who don’t seem to want to give deeper thought and sensitivity to things…
Not entirely sure which point you are referring to. I guarantee I will find all sorts of people hurt by all sorts of gatherings or events. I did pray with a black Christian lady on the day who appeared to embrace the opportunity for us to pray together though.
I agree, we can’t dismiss it because of the good vibe, but I also think we should be careful to water down a time in Gods presence to simply a “vibe”.
Before you go on thinking I am out of touch with the challenges of South Africa, visit my blog and see what frames my perspective.
It was an amazing day nonetheless.
By all reports it was not a “million plus”gathering and as much as that seems like a random thing, it is not. People who were there and people who did some maths on the roads and stuff suggest closer to 500, 000 if not 350, 000 and if people are getting facts wrong by 500, 000 to 750, 000 [and some people who claim 2 million people] then everything else loses credibility – you mention it three times in your blog so i would change that…
In terms of once the people are gathered there [good or bad] and the ‘But God’ i am all for that. i am a strong believer in Romans 8.28 that God can work for good anything [even things that were badly thought out and caused a lot of pain] and that is my hope and what i will cling to…
But sadly when i think back to the Transformation prayer meetings which were stadiums full of people confessing and repenting and worshipping God and the lack of obvious change in people’s lives afterwards i have to come to one of two conclusions:
[1] God did not listen and respond
[2] People did not truly and honestly confess and repent and worship
i’m not super amped to consider that [1] might be true and so that bothers me deeply and we really have to critique this stuff even if we end up at different places – i am super hopeful for South Africa and the kingdom of God here but if those events which were massive worldwide million people things failed to produce tangible nation-affecting change, then we have to ask questions…
Oh well Brett, we’ll have to simply find our common ground in Romans 8:28.
Sure, but don’t let that stop you from asking necessary questions and looking to do things well for everyone…
//Jman, you are welcome to your opinion, but this comment shows a lack of deeper thought on some things.
You know people tend to say ‘you are welcome to your opinion’ only when theirs gets challenged and they don’t want to listen. I will show you deeper thought
//God calls us – in the greatest commandment – to love Him with among other things all of our MIND… God wants us to think about these things – look at how the Bereans were commended in Acts 17 for every day wrestling with scripture to see if what the disciples were preaching was true…
the greatest command is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. The second is to love your neighbour as yourself. And then elsewhere it is written to study to show yourself approved so yes think about things. The people were commended for how they wrestled with scripture to see if the disciples arguments were sound. So if you want to argue that way then use scripture to argue the words that was spoken and if angus was sound biblically and not whether the meeting was a good idea or politically correct or not. Wrestle to see if it held true to God’s word. I do not see a love of God to the extent that it should be, I see a lack of trust in God
//Ii did not dismiss the event purely on the basis of seeing ripples – i am saying that is how we will see if it was effective or not – there was a huge repentance/confession time apparently and if lives were not changed [ripples] then that will be proved to not have been anything, right?
I agree with the fruit that needs to be seen. But not all seen fruit are true fruit. You are lacking trust in God to work in the hearts of stubborn people. Just because you don’t see fruit immediatly does not mean God is not working, it means you should be patient and pray that the fruit will show and sow into the lives of the people through admonishing them, rebuking them, and praying for them when they don’t live as they should.
//Secondly if an event is put in a place that only wealthy people can travel to because of finance [for the most part] that is problematic… if all the songs sung were in Zulu or Xhosa i imagine you might have a lot more to say about the worship but because it was your language, no worries… that is not love in action – love is making sure that the majority of people can receive the message, understand the message and be able to celebrate at least part of it in their own language – as followers of Jesus we shouldn’t be seeing what minimum we can get away with [deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him] but how much we can step towards others as Jesus did His whole life, including them, welcoming them listening to them…
As for the location of the event i repeat my previous statement that no matter where the event was held you would have sat with the same issue of people not being able to go because they cannot afford it. You are judging by the flesh and not the spirit. Not everyone who was there is wealthy, not everyone who was there could afford to go yet they went. With regards to the worship, i will contend that you have a heart issue and do not truly understand the heart of worship if you fail to worship fully because of the colour of someone’s skin or the language of the songs. Singing is not the only form of worship. We did not go there to be entertained by some band, we went there to humble ourselves before God, to seek His face and pray to Him. If all those songs were in xhosa or zulu or venda it would have made no difference because i didnt even know half the songs, i was filled with awe in standing quietly praising God for the sound of a million people singing together. But if you want to argue linguistics, why not have songs in german, polish, porteguese, spanish, arabian, or other languages of the language groups that were represented? But part as you said that is needed was in english, which everyone there understood, how else would anyone be able to say amen when they do not understand?
And yes DENY YOURSELF, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS, AND FOLLOW JESUS.
deny your vendeta, deny your wants, your expectations, your emotions, your pride, your desires and follow Jesus. We weren’t there to be entertained, or to seek for anything other than God. You speak of denying yourself. The do it. Deny your hurt, your anger, your resentment and praise God, deny your frustration that there is no black worship leader and worship God. Deny your ideals and worship God. Deny your political correctness and truly worship God in spirit and truth. Deny your offences and humble yourself before God and trust Him to work in your heart as well as the others
//Words matter – not so much what you mean as what is heard – many of my black erefriends heard Angus ‘call to normal’ as a call to the way things used to be which was both not normal and horrific for the majority of them – if you want to “my goodness” then “my goodness” that – as a leader in a diverse country, there is the need to do better and Angus got that one wrong and will hopefully learn from it…
Words matter i agree. But i will not agree with your claim because if what is heard is not what is being said and you do not take it up with the spokesman for clarity and grumble and complain and sit in offence, then that is on you. If i am wrong when i speak and you hear what i am not saying and you don’t come to me for clarity then it is on you not me. And as for those who took offence, it is on them and on you and me to pray for their hearts to be healed from the scars and the pain that was caused, instead of ridiculing everything that brings back painful memories, pray for healing and forgiveness, ask God to help you forgive, and to let go of the anger and resentment in your heart so i will still “my goodness” that because you show that you do not trust God to heal the hearts that are the issue. Angus had it right, i do not need to defend him, God is his judge, you have no claim to say whether or not a man chosen by God, to do something no one else had the balls to do, was right or wrong. You are judging according to the flesh, not the spirit. You look at the outward appearance and miss what God is doing inside. What must angus learn? To be politically correct and please everyone?? Are you kidding me. I can bet that if it was any other way or any other place, if it was not you then someone would have criticised the event just as you are doing
you are looking for fruit. Look for fruit in your own life and forget the rest until you can see it in yourself. We prayed against racialism and yet here you are drawing a race line…
Your lack of critique ends up being a lack of love for the many people who are still hurting in this country because of the past and the present that has been created by it and then also the lack of understanding or even attempts at understanding by people like you who don’t seem to want to give deeper thought and sensitivity to things…
Once again i realise that your stubbornness brings us nowhere…we went there to humble ourselves and yet you and those who have offence in their heart refuse to humble yourselves before God, you refuse to let go of your desires and to drop your issues and be before God in purity and holiness with your brokenness and trust Him to work in your own hearts, you want political correctness from a God who is no respecter of persons, who does as He finds fit according ti His wisdom, and yet you want to tell us that that God made a mistake, a bad idea?? You are meant to pray for yourself and everyone else to encounter the love of God…
My critique is against christians who judge other christians and the work of God because it doesn’t seem right, and then fail to pray for people to be healed and restored, who are so impatient and ignorant of the heart of God that they doubt God when they do not see. How many months or years does it take an addict to truly be set free and show true fruit of repentance without any backsliding? A month? A year? Or more? And then you will claim they have not known God otherwise they woukd not have backslid?
If you who are a man, limited in your understanding claim to understand God en I question your understanding because if you understood you would know and understa d that not all fruit are shown within a few months. It takes time, effort, prayer, and trust in God to see fruitfulness.
That is that. You are a man of God, pray for your friends and yourself to be healed of the hurt and offence within your heart and stop crituiqing others with a damaged heart. We all need prayer, and we all need Jesus. It is sad that you do not trust God to use half hearted repentance in order to achieve full repentance, and then you end up breaking down the faith of a person because you do not see physical fruit where there is only a seed being watered and cultivated to bring much fruit in due time.
Yeah, i’m just not hearing you care about anyone beyond yourself ad justifying what you did. You sound far more like a Pharisee than Jesus in your blatant disregard for the poor and margiinalised who Jesus was always creating space for and bringing closer to Him. Go back to Him and study His word and His life and the way He treated people and then we can talk because i am just not seeing or hearing it here.
Both of you are fools. The writer of this blog obviously has a point that he wants to make which has little to do with fruitfullness and more to do with getting people to read his cute article by hiding behind a attractive headline…and all we get is racialism and negativity towards a day that was huge for most people…
And Jman obviously notices a carnal mindedness in the writers approach which annoyed him enough to get into a meaningless argument…
It seems like Jman only wants to get the writers attention on issues of God, and the writer wants to get Jmans attention on issues of this world and the one insults the other instead of building up one another.
You fools do realise that disunity is the devils tactic. Brett you are wrong and Jman you are wrong…this article is a pathetic attempt to get an agenda across and get our focus off of God and onto man (and just because someone does not see the issues you see as issues as issues doesnt give you the right to insult their love for people brett. You are no better than anyone else and i agree with Jman on your pride and stubborness) andJman you didnt have to get into a public argument and show division among brothers. Your points are valid and yet you are also lacking. This is a public platform and not one for debate and meaningless arguments, the writer has his opinions and will not listen to any negative feedback on it. You both need to shut up right now and pray and seek God and stop this nonsense.
I see Jmans point clearly but clearly it is being looked over because he did not concider race or comfort or finances a big deal and realises that people will always have opinions no matter what, and that the issues of hurt needs to be prayed for and not avoided. And i see bretts point and even though i don’t see what most of it has to do with fruitfulness…you should have chosen a different heading…
So please shut up and stop giving the enemy an opportunity to divide brothers in Christ! This is not helping anyone.
Wow, Dwayne, hypocrit much… for a ‘Don’t judge’ rant that was quite the judgemental piece…
Somethings you’re wrong about though is that the issues of God and the issues of man are linked – the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself… the mind bit suggests God is okay with us using our brain to wrestle/engage/think through and consider which is what my original piece was doing – Paul publicly criticises Peter for being a hypocrite in front of the gentiles and Jesus publicly embarrasses Peter by calling him ‘Satan’ when he gets it wrong and has in mind the things of man and not of God. Jesus publicly goes to work on the people in the temple grounds when they are cheating the people and making a mockery of God’s house which is meant to be a place of prayer and not of taking advantage of people…
Those are just a few examples of how there are times when a public response [and not a comfortable, friendly, gentle one] is necessary and called for – there are other times when Jesus suggests going one on one for starters and then upping the people if the person refuses to respond.
Jman at least is engaging in debate and hopefully each of us will go away and think about our respective opinions and strength or adjust them based on the arguments we’ve heard [it might be your own insecurities coming through when you suggest that no one is going to listen to anyone else?] – that’s how we learn and grow and develop.
A non confrontational lets-agree-with-everything-presented approach to Christianity is certainly NOT the christianity of the bible, it is not taking into account an example like the Bereans in Acts 17 who went home and wrestled with the scriptures every day after listening to Paul to make sure what he was saying was true and it sounds a lot more like the thing we are called to avoid in terms of “surrounding yourselves with people who say what their itching ears want them to say”
So do yourself a favour and go stand in front of the mirror and see where you are getting it wrong. Then come and engage with those of us who are not too scared to wrestle like the majority of the people all through the bible did, both with God and man.
brett fish
Also you may want to check what Jesus said specifically about people who call people “fools”…
Ek stem saam. Hoekom stry julle oor twak? Dis onnodig en sinneloos. My vraag is net hierdie; hoekom die groot probleem met taal en velkleur en hoekom word dit weggesteek agter n opskrif wat gaan oor vrugbaarheid? Ek verstaan nie hoe jy so lang artikel kan tik en net n klein stukkie in he oor vrugbaarheid waneer die tema vrugbaarheid is nie?
Maar julle moet regtig ophou stry, en mekaar se goed weer mooi lees
Cj, thanks for stopping by [i would try respond in Afrikaans but think that would be painful for you – can understand but my vocab is not so great – appreciate you writing in your mother tongue though!] – i think it is crucial that we wrestle with these things so that we can do it well… gathering people for prayer is a good thing but there were some things done in the process that hurt a lot of people and so it’s important that we look a little more closely – God does command us to love Him with all of our mind which suggests thinking deeply about things. When we filled up rugby stadiums with thousands of praying people we didn’t see so much change in the lives of the people and so we have to ask is it going to be different this time and if not then maybe we have to come to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. But if 500 000 people [or however many were there plus those praying around the country] were genuine in their repentance and we see it mirrored in their lives as they return home then that is something super exciting to be prepared for. We can’t just do things and hope they’re good things though – we need to be more sensitive and plan more carefully because of our history which sadly does still leave a lot of things being about race…
All the best
love brett fish