There is a new group on Facebook that i am a part of called Conversations for a Just South Africa.
At the moment there are around 1500 people in the group and climbing every day.
Which may not seem super exciting to many people when a group like #ImStaying arrived on the scene just a couple of weeks ago and is on the way to 500 000 people.
Conversations is not a group that started in opposition to #ImStaying as some may think.
While at the same time i believe it was started to some extent from a place of dissatisfaction or uncomfortability with the way that #ImStaying was going about its business. So #ImStaying provided the catalyst for a group of people who were looking for something more.
Which i wrote this blog post about. Which many of you read. And this is not a statement being made on behalf of the group, but simply some of my reflections as a group member and moderator.
“Can’t you just be positive?”
My friend Tamsyn Elaine Allison and a few of her friends are extremely positive and hopeful about South Africa.
She invited me to be part of the group early on because she sense that i was as well. But in addition to the positivity we had something else going on inside of us: the knowledge that what South Africa needs right now is positive and hopeful people who will commit to doing the hard and uncomfortable but necessary work that is required to change this country around.
She says it best: While we love the idea that positivity is needed for social cohesion, we also acknowledge that some difficult, and painful, conversations need to happen for meaningful change to occur. This is a collaborative space for social learning to occur. We are unapologetically Intersectional, anti-racist, and egalitarian. All faiths are welcome, but we are secular.
When #ImStaying stated that they are all about positivity and there will be no talk about race, religion or politics, that confused us. How do you possibly convey a message of positivity while at the same time declaring that things must stay as they are? For millions of people in South Africa, the way things are is really not a lot of positive.
Conversations for a Just South Africa
The group actually started out as ‘Conversations for a Better South Africa’ before it was decided, after some inspiration from Gaopalelwe Phalaetsile, that Just feels like something that can be more practically measured or focused. And with the understanding that “For All” silently follows the group name.
So on Friday i was invited to be a moderator/admin of the group [Facebook terms – we much prefer something like ‘Facilitator of Mutual Growth and Learning’ and we started trying to figure out how the thing works [Spoiler Alert: We still don’t have too much of a clue, but it kinda is!].
Conversations feels like a work in progress. First of all, it is not about the ten to twelve of us that are moderators [only three of whom are white i believe, and only three male, both of which are significant!] but about everyone who chooses to jump in and commit to the hard conversations. The group is for people who love South Africa and want to be positive, but realise that hard, messy, painful, confusing, awkward work is needed to get us closer to being there.
- We are against name-calling and the negative use of laugh emojis which often suggests sarcasm or ridicule, but beyond that so far have really tried to do as much as possible to keep conversations flowing.
- We encourage deep listening and would love it if new members would commit to a few days of wandering around the group just taking in what is going on, before adding comments and then finally adding posts.
- We love questions that dig a little deeper such as, “If you say the woman who cleans your home is family, how come is she the only family member cleaning the toilet?” “Why is the notion of colourblindness unhelpful when so much of the mess we are in as a country was directly linked to colour? and “Are you as a man able to read some of the reasons why women deeply fear men without feeling the need to respond and defend and let her know you are not that kind of man?”
Understanding – Collaboration – Action
Mainly we are about gathering people from all walks of life to sit with some difficult topics and seek to learn and offer learning. To hear difficult things without taking offense or running away. To push into what my friend Craig Stewart calls ‘The Disequilibrium’ – place of discomfort and uncertainty where answers aren’t obvious. In all areas where South African is broken and in need of repair.
We are committed to the idea that the conversations that happen online HAVE TO move to action to bring about change. We are not interested in academic or philosophical conversations for conversation sake. We are all hungry for change.
And you are welcome to disagree with us and the way we are going about things. There are a number of groups doing similar things to create space for difficult conversations and we celebrate any space that does so. There is absolutely no need for competition here.
BUT one thing i will say, and strongly, if i may, It is absolutely NOT okay for you to suggest that we are any less positive or hopeful than the hundreds of thousands of people who make up #ImStaying simply because we have dared to critique it. We are some of the most positive and hopeful people i know. Because we are committed to doing something about it.
Come and take a look. Wander around for a bit and get the lay of the land. And we do hope you will stay. And not get defensive or run at the first sign of discomfort. Which i can almost promise you will be there. True reconciliation and transformation requires us to be present… and to continue to pitch up. Hope to see you diving into some Conversations for a Just South Africa.
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Do you think that a lot of this is self-loathing mixed in with virtue-signalling and an inability to earn money hence the socialist propaganda machine? If so, seek psychological help going forward? How do you find the time? Aren’t you married? Do you sit on the NET all day?
Emily
Hi Emily, i am married and i work flexi-time which means when i work i work and in between i engage on the internet, some of which is work. The work we are doing at Conversations for a Just South Africa is valuable in terms of helping people see each other [get a sense of their history, pain, struggles] and learn from each other while committing to doing the hard work of pushing into uncomfortable spaces so that ultimately healing can take place and the country can be changed.
Emily’s comment is a typical example that white South Africans are immune to black pain and lived experiences. They want the toned down black voice conditioned by years of suppression. We black people have had to develop mechanisms to survive the temperament of those who held ( and still hold ) the whip over us. Our ‘ rageism’ frightens people like Emily because her kind have categorised how blacks should behave. The rage you see in black people is caused by centuries of systemic racism and white brutality. We speak in softened tones with whites because our lived realities know how deadly your reaction is. Our stories are negative because our lived experiences are negative. I don’t share your optimism that we can live together in harmony. The disconnect is too great between us. The group is a noble gesture, a great idea but too painful for those of us who know too well the meaning of racist brutality. I left because I received threatening DMs in my inbox and was reported to Fb as having violated their standards through hate speech. This proves that whites want to expose everything and everyone else except their own racism and privilege.
Thank you Leon. We were sorry to see you go and i’m still not quite sure what happened. But it really is a tough space [online in general] in terms of drawing white people into the conversation without silencing black pain. Cos typical white response is “This is too hard/uncomfortable, I’m leaving” which is why #ImStaying works so well cos there is protection there. But no growth…
i do hear you on the pain and i will never understand it experientially because i have never lived it but i do lean towards it in a bid to understand as much as my mind may and i have some friends who have shared deep deep pain particularly in township living and some of the hell that exists there on earth. i will keep fighting to bring white people to the party and it shouldn’t need for people like you to be debris or casualty on the way…
Sorry about that DM nonsense, that is the work of cowards and i hope you will find other spaces where you can do the deep work that feels healing for you… Thank you for connecting here!
love brett fish
I heard its getting lots of bad reviews as a prominent author mentioned its an echo chamber. Very negative site.
You should go and take a look and not believe everything you hear from prominent authors. It is very definitely NOT an echo chamber. Would be a lot less admin if it was!
That conversations group is definitely an ECHO CHAMBER. I know at least 20 people banned off there already lol. That is the problem with liberal groups like that – eventually it is a yes sir group and nobody is allowed to say anything to challenge the opinions of the admins. But if that what you guys like then cool. Need a neutral group going forward.
Well, i don’t believe that’s true because the number of people that we have banned from the room we can count on two hands or maybe even one. Which means you came here just to stir. Which means i will stop taking you seriously.
Thank you for at least coming down from the lofty perch of white supremacy and privilege. The dichotomy of liberal and conservative in privilege speak reveal the petulance of racism and it’s deliberate denial of black pain. Pseudo racist science may be discredited but its tentacles still grip white consciousness. According to to pseudo science blacks don’t feel pain as blacks do. Escaped slaves were said to be suffering from a neurosis. Many of us still want to escape far, far away from whitey and his whip. Ytes fatigue us with the constant demands on our souls. We’ve had to develop a way to deal with interaction with ytes. The downward cast of our eyes, the lowered tone of voice, the deference. Ytes know and accept that language from us. We created a patois, a dialect of pretend subservience. Deep down we seethe with rage at having to speak this alien tongue. Our pure language is filled with ubuntu, poetry and song. We loved being together away from ytes until you forced us to self loathe. Indoctrinated into believing black was a curse, burdened by cruel servitude and degraded living conditions we turned against each other much to the delight of privilege. Black unity frightens whites. Black consciousness and black self reliance is too much for the supremacists. In a recent conversation with a very arrogant yte male, I was told that the country would collapse in a few months if every white person left and that ytes were actually doing us a favour by remaining. I took a while to reply before telling him I fully agreed with the first part of his statement. Whites control the economy by far so if they leave and disinvest the country would collapse. If every farmer left of course we would have massive food insecurity. Self reliance is a massive ethos in woke black speech. We will be poor when whites leave ( as they always threaten us with leaving). We were poor, dirt poor and restricted during apartheid. If ytes leave we will be poor but not as fatigued as we are. I personally don’t think there is a need for whites to leave or that we can’t live in the same space. There’s racism in the UK but there are spaces where black and white leave together and interact as equals. The US and South Africa are still earth’s most racist states. We may have had a black US president and 25 years of black rule in SA but the status quo remains. Systemic racism exists and the backlash of the Obama era and black political power is evident. I saw a post in the Staying group where a black person posted a picture of lots of plates of food on a tablecloth spread on the floor. This was a meal for the 30 souls who lived in the house. The commentary that followed reveals how shockingly naive and insensitive whites are to black pain and lived reality. Whites brought us Christianity. It’s one of earths most violent religions ever. Christianity is violent in the hands of privilege. What a farce this religion is. It tells us to believe in Jesus but does not live his ethos. It glorifies him with mere words but remodels his concepts to suit themselves. I love the ethos of the true ‘Jesus ‘ but hate how his followers are such hypocrites. Sies! If Christians listened and reflected on his teachings and acted accordingly we wouldn’t be in this predicament. White churches are the greatest examples of supremacy and privilege. Racists wear masks. Racists go to church. Racists burn churches ( not physically these days but with attitude ). I visited a white church and came out very tired. False declarations and love your enemies don’t cut it. You can’t love your abuser and forgive them before they recognise the hurt and pain they’ve caused. Being around ytes makes me feel like I’ve been raped. I’m tired, violated, raging and in pain. Is a women expected to just forget her terrible rape ordeal? Is she expected to stop the internal rage and forgive? Forgiveness is cathartic but not if the perpetrator is immune to his crime. Shalom!
i looked for you on Facebook and realise it might be connected to the post you had reported but please add me, if you want to, when you are back and running…
This group looks like an echo chamber. You must agree with the admins or be removed.
Who does 99.9 percent of the car hijackings?
Who does 99 percent of all cash in transit crimes?
Who does 99 percent of all home invasions?
You guessed it…
Libtards never seem to understand that yes, we are all affected by crime, but WHO is doing all the crime. So when I see that BM in my street at 11PM, yes, he gets reported!
Once you stick the word ‘libtards’ in your comment you make it completely clear who you are and what you are about and racism is not appreciated on this blog so please keep walking… this “those people” nonsense is unnecessary… and not true.
I agree with Zane. Who is doing all the crime? You don’t see white women hijacking cars. lol. Nor white guys. So who is it? I would like to know why you’re in denial? Can you answer that?
The problem with your statement Eugene, which feels pretty racist and the word LOL makes me assume you aren’t serious about engaging with these things at all, is that it doesn’t take into account the population of this country or the history of this country. So if white people [8% of the country – are we committing less than 8% of the crime?] were moved out of their homes and pushed to the outskirts of society and stuck in dumps with no toilets and basic conditions for thriving and excluded from jobs and given inferior education and and and then it would make complete sense that white people were committing the majority of crimes. Truth is that white people committed the kind of theft that makes muggings and robberies seem like picnics and that theft continues to cause millions to live in inequaity which is a big promoter of crime.
And what about 350 years of white theft of our land? What about yte exploiting POC and using us as free labor? What about the theft of forced removals and restrictive pass laws? Racism made a black person a criminal simply by being in the ‘wrong’ place. Racism and yte privilege conveniently uses criminality to point out black violence. Colonialism destroyed our social systems. Ytes taught us that stealing was OK by their actions. Black people are more effected by criminality than ytes. I wasn’t ever going to make any comment on here but calling someone a libtard because they’ve come to terms with white privilege and confronting systemic and structural racism is not one. Where does this clown even gets his stats from?
It was not your land. Your ancestors were living in Polokwane area. Western Cape was settled and then only after 200 years did they start trekking north in the Great Trek. NO LAND WAS STOLEN IN WESTERN CAPE. Sorry about that.
People are not going to pay more tax. Expect a tax revolt if that happens. People are not going to give up their houses – sorry, but what do you expect? So what is the solution? Stop breeding that is the solution.
Breeding refers to animals not people, Eugene. Check yourself and your language because the words you use and the attitude that accompanies it hurts people i know and love and show a complete lack of compassion and empathy to those different to you which is one definition of racism pure and simple!
If you looked at population growth you will see over the last 100 years, the black population went up about 10 times. The whites population maybe 2 times. With whites at around 4 million and blacks at around 50 million, AA and BEE should now be scrapped. It’s not working and it’s not helpful and it’s a mess and it only made Cyril and Motesoe and the Zumas and Guptas and the ANC wealthy. It was a disaster.
So perhaps look at population growth? Why should a minority group get taxed more? Is that what you suggesting? Or if I’m mistaken, what do you suggest? I’m certainly not going to work any harder than I already do and pay more tax. Nobody will. That’s total slavery. My suggestion is those having babies thry cannot feed, go and get jobs. They should be forced to work. We can’t have 90 percent tax. Nobody will bother paying.
I look forward to the day everyone says no more. Then those who keep having kids to get grants will be forced to work.
It is deeply offensive when you try to compare paying taxes to slavery. That suggests to me that you may want to go and do a little more research on what slavery was and is.
I don’t care much for the poor who have so many kids. Why should I work harder? Nah, better to work less and be like you and go to coffee shops, overseas holidays and attend every March for every cause. Much more fun. So I’m going to work less, pay less tax or nothing at all and just enjoy life like you do.
For someone who seems to not know a whole lot about me you certainly come across as someone who claims to know a lot about me. But clearly doesn’t.
Taxation is slavery. No two ways about it. If you work 5 days and 3 if those days work gets taxed then for those 3 days you are a slave! No two ways about it. No two ways about it.
Again, you’re wasting my time if you won’t do the work. Slavery involved people being treated at objects and raped, beaten and killed at their masters leisure. You cannot even start comparing with just that in mind. End of conversation…
I joined your group in the hope of finding an arena of constructive debate. I read a lot of the posts and instead found a toxic environment where nothing is tolerated if it is not liked by the admins who appear to have their own agenda of intolerance. When I tried to engage I was told to shut up and listen. When I pointed out that listening is only one part of conversation I was muted by Tamsyn(who appears to be trigger happy with her button)without any warning and with a condescending and kindergarten-ish comment. I see that you have since changed the groups name to Conversations for a Better South Africa. I’m afraid you have a long way to go with your group before you have anything to contribute towards constructive conversation towards a better South Africa. I have since left the group and nothing will persuade me to return.
Hi Brett,
“i was asked to listen, but…”
i suggest that therein lies your issue – would i be wrong in guessing you’re a white man cos that tends to be a problem we have because we believe that what we have to say is so important? And if that is the case then that group – which was changed FROM ‘Better’ TO ‘Just’ [which again maybe highlights your need to listen or read carefully because you are rushing too quickly to your opinion] – is probably not for you, because it is a space where white people in particular have a lot to learn more by listening than forcing their opinions on people. If you were told to be quiet and listen and learn and you responded with a statement and then felt that the mute [designed to help you listen and learn when you can’t] was a cruel punishment, you are missing the point and now you feel hard done by.
There have been a lot of incredible conversations in that group where people have really pushed in to the hard stuff and started to really see each other and hear the hard stories and start moving to the tough solutions and hopefully real life changes. What a pity you made it all about you and missed out on all of that.
Brett
Hi Brett,
I certainly am not making it all about me. It’s a pity you are rushing too quickly in your opinion. In the post I said I was willing to listen and all I received in response was a ‘sigh’ and no further follow up. As an activist in the 80’s who had a relationship across the colour bar ban I was subject to much discrimination and interrogation regarding my involvement with the resistance movement myself. I don’t feel that my muting was cruel punishment at all,just infantile – in fact I only found out that I had been muted after it had been lifted. That particular weekend I was hosting a workshop on the art of communication – a skill in which which your admins and apparently yourself are sorely lacking. Your groups muting policy does not encourage conversation,it negates it. If the admin who muted me is unwilling to understand what the definition of conversation is then I put it down to immaturity and a fragile ego. I have long since learned not to take that kind of thing personally..but your admin obviously did.
Yes,I’m afraid your group is not for me. Nor is it for black friends of mine who have quit the group for the same reason. I wish you all the best with your efforts which no doubt are with good intention but hopelessly misguided.
Brett
Your response comes across as quite arrogant. You know all the things – we don’t know any of the things. i too work with story-telling facilitation and could i imagine teach you some things about communication. But because your voice is important and must be heard it doesn’t seem like you have the space or time for that. So maybe spend some time rereading through what you just wrote and trying to listen to yourself cos there is work to be done. As there is in me and my fellow admins who are all doing the work in the group on a volunteer basis and yet have to continually be faced with people like yourself who can’t deal with the fact that their voice might not be the most important…
I suggest you follow your own advice. I’ve obviously hit a sensitive nerve of yours. Try not to take it personally. You apparently have some work to do and some way to go. Any further ‘conversation’ with you is a futile waste of my time and yours.
Best regards.
i’m genuinely interested as to why you think it has struck a sensitive nerve with me, cos it genuinely hasn’t. However, what i am sensing in you is someone who sees disagreement as conflict and so anytime someone disagrees with you, you receive it as a personal attack, which is a pity cos you will never learn that way. Look at my comments: “We both have learning to do” – Then reread yours: “The problem is entirely yours”.
As someone who leads Communication workshops, it worries me that holding your own voice feels threatening to you somehow. That listening and learning feels weak and unnecessary. And that at the first sign of pushback you flee the source of that discomfort rather than seeking to learn and go and find somewhere else to voice your displeasure.
I think Shuman is right. That liberals are the most intolerant and that group is like a kiss ass self hating society support group for wannabe libtards. Don’t even read that drivel and propaganda.
When we put people into boxes that make it easy for us to dismiss such a huge number of them without even taking into account what they say, we need to re-examine the boxes. The word ‘libtard’ to me is an offensive one because it comes from the base word ‘retard’ which has been deemed offensive and unacceptable for a number of years now. Raise your argument or look a little more deeply at your words and thoughts because it feels like you are being lead by popular slogans and propaganda rather than thinking for yourself on this.