i attended a workshop by Brian Mclaren entitled ‘Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed Cross the Road?’
now anyone who knows my Brian Mclaren history knows it didn’t start well – i read a book of his whose title i can’t remember but who most fans of his writing have told me is not one of his greatest books and i wasn’t that impressed – don’t even know if i finished it – at the same time i had heard some stuff about him and seen some of his statements and just generally decided that i wasn’t a big fan [or at least that there were a bunch of other writer/speaker types who were more helpful and healthy to follow back then]
then we flew to americaland and i stayed at my friend [who i met on the internet playing a silly facebook game – have made some good friends that way!] Steve Heineman’s house and he had just finished reading ‘A Generous Orthodoxy’ by Brian Mclaren and told me it was really good and so i borrowed his copy and started reading it… and really enjoyed it and would highly recommend it for hungry, open-minded Christians to read – basically he breaks down a whole bunch of labels like catholic vs protestant, pentecostal vs evangelical etc etc etc and says how he is all of them, taking a look at their strengths and weaknesses and seeing how we can learn from all of them – really took me a long time to read cos i would read a chapter and then take some days to think about it, but really a great read.
so i attended his workshop – ‘Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed Cross the Road?’ – which is also the title of his upcoming book, with a bit of trepidation as the interfaith question makes me a little bit nervous – i do believe we can learn things from each other and that we can work together, but i don’t believe that ‘all roads lead to Rome,’ or heaven really…
and really enjoyed it. i would say i agreed with about 95% of what he said and while there was some stuff i would like to think more about and maybe have some more dialogue on i can’t say there was anything i strongly disagreed with.
here are some brief highlights but i imagine this might be a book worth checking out [they were handing out free proofreading copies but i got there too late and so hopefully i will be having a copy mailed to me sometime soon]
one thing he spoke a lot on was that Jesus never created an us vs them – he was all about showing benevolence to the other rather than hostility towards the other – reaching out to the kinds of people the religious and other leaders were encouraging Him to stay away from – and being accused of hanging out with the wrong kind of people… interesting thort.
another thing he said which describes much better what i have been trying to say with my soccer player $40 million blog post a while back was this: “if seven billion people want to live the way we live, we have a crisis.” – the system works for the rich – it is awfully tragic for the poor.
and lastly, the punchline of his book title, ‘Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and Mohammed Cross the Road?’ is “to get to the other!” which is brilliant and what i believe Jesus would be wanting us to do – in conversation, through relationships, in support and love.
oh and one last idea which i may think about more and blog about further was the idea that we have recognised and dealt with “selfishness” a lot when it comes to Christianity and how we live in the world and beyond, but something new we may need to consider needing to deal with is the idea of “Groupishness” where we do the same kind of destructive things based on who we are as groups or the church.
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Yis, about A Generous Orthodoxy
Why advocate a book (non-fiction) that by its own admission is “…absurd because it advocates an orthodoxy that next to no one holds, at least not so far.” (p.27 of “A Generous Orthodoxy”) ? Is that a contradiction in terms or a get-out clause ? Was Jesus’ “orthodoxy” not enough ? Does the Author have some secret message of Jesus that I don’t have or can’t find in the bible ?
On page 18, the author states that “The approach you’ll find here . . . seeks to find a way to embrace the good in many traditions and historic streams of Christian faith, and to integrate them, yielding a new, generous, emergent approach that is greater than the sum of its parts.”
Didn’t Paul, to the Galatians and to Timothy, say that we should definitely not do that ?
I agree with you that open minded Christians could read it but i don’t think they should take it to heart.
Finally, I have heard many speeches of politicians and sales people giving me 95% truths and 5% of things i were not sure of. You just have to take it from who it comes….
My opinion.
Love.
kleinfrans
dude, read the book, then let me know what you think…
and i think that ‘absurd’ quote may be taken out of context – don’t have the book with me so not sure where you’re getting that but sounds like Paul when he does that ‘i must be crazy for saying this’ argument in one of his letters – need to read it in context and then you may have less issue… what i would suggest is you take the advice of someone you respect [i think] over the hesitation you have over someone you haven’t read because the worst that can happen is you read a rubbish book, but i am suggesting there is some good stuff in there and so is that not a chance worth taking [based on our history – it’s not like i’ve suddenly gone heretic or anything] with an open mind thinking maybe God can teach you something through it…
HI Brett,
I have read the book. You were right and the worst thing happened: i read a rubbish book. He spent 1 chapter breaking down the labels about different religions, thereafter he mostly talked about himself.
The “absurd” quote above is in context for this reason: the author muddles the fact that the message and instruction God gives us in his word is enough, a true reflection / account of the life and words of Jesus and could be understood by all who want to understand its meaning. The author gives a fair warning that what he proposes in the book is not a fair reflection on the bible. This quote readily admits that what he is proposing with his “generous orthodoxy” is actually absurd when measured to what the Church preaches. I say this and leave myself open to a debate on who the “church” is but i think you already know the answer to that.
Yes, God is greater than what we can imagine but what we need to know to follow Jesus is given in the bible. The things we don’t need to know is obviosly not in the bible. We have a simple message, written to you and I, that stood, and is standing, the test of time: ALL have sinned and moved away from God (Rom 3:23). You can only be saved by believing in me and not by following the law (Rom 7:4). By accepting Jesus as the saviour and thus clearing your debts with God, you will want to be benevolent, humble, kind, forgiving, neighbour loving, fruits of the spirit, etc. and are explicitly called to be so. These are all characteristics of a Jesus follower. But first you need Jesus to be truly so.
If what the author is saying in his book is true, a post-modernist way of “following” Jesus, then why go to church at all ? why have preaches ? why study the bible at all ? why not just read a heading of a piece of scripture or a quote form Jesus and say to yourself “self, I cant understand this anyway so i’ll just apply it in the way i think might be relevant” or something even more absurd. NO! in Josh 1:8 (and don’t say “but its old testament.” Jesus came to justify the law and the prophets) explicitly says that we should think about (study) the scripture day and night.
In the book i found a muddled opinion on theology. I consulted some scholars (people who have devoted their life to studying the word of God) and they seem to concur on the contents of a Generous Orthodoxy.
I think i have said enough (although there is more to be said about the philosophies punted at the wild goose) but i’ll leave you with this: what if the Israelite high Priest invited a Baal priest (back in the day) to come teach in the temple ? Would the Israelites have thought that this is “cool” and that they can “learn something from the Baal religion” ?
much love in Christ
kf
hey Frans
thankx for your thoughts – not clear on which book you have read here – A Generous Orthodoxy or Why did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha and Mohammed cross the road? ah never mind, seems the second one is not out yet – i have a pre-release copy waiting to read… so assuming Generous Orthodoxy – have you read it recently or a while ago? for me it’s a bit of a memory so hard to argue well for it except from what i remember and not sure i am even needing to be defending the book so much – i appreciated a bunch from it for sure and know others that have and am sure there are a lot of people who didn’t enjoy it as well and that’s okay – if it is proposing false teaching and herasy then that’s a different story and it might need to be more critically reviewed, but i don’t think it was – remember i was reading it as someone who was not a fan of the author at the time and the book inspired me to think that maybe he did have something good to say and meeting and hearing him speak i really did feel like that was true.
the main point i got out of Generous Orthodoxy was the unnecessary emphasis placed on labels and when you say Brian spent the rest of the book looking at himself i think that was the vehicle chosen to convey that message [as opposed to making it an egotistical book] as he wrote from the place of saying i am catholic and i am protestant but identifying areas where catholic is strong and areas where protestant is strong and saying let’s chase after those and areas where both are weak and saying let’s avoid or work on those…
and so on with labels like evvangelical and pentecostal and baptist and methodist and so on – for me the strongest thing was taking he strengths out of a bunch of the various labels and showing how as Christ followers we can transcend the labels themselves [and not need to spend so much time fighting to prove that our label is better or “more right”] and work together on the common cause of the gospel which is bringing in the kingdom…
that’s what i got and it was a positive and i think very true message – did i agree with everything in the book? probably not. but there was enough good for me to benefit and to look at my faith more critically and also to hopefully be more open to looking for truth in someone else’s.
one thing that is quite easy to say [and i’m sure i have a lot growing up, and may continue to] is ‘just read the Bible, it’s all in there’ which even if it is true has to be linked to the question, ‘what Bible?’ and ‘what translation of the Bible?’ and ‘what personal interpretation of what translation of the Bible’ because there are a lot of questions surrounding each of those but especially the last one as people have “used the bible” to support apartheid and nazism and the crusades and hating homosexuals and a bunch of other horrible misguided non Jesus following “truths” and so it is not as simple as all that – there is so much faith involved and for me it really is about being led by the Holy Spirit into all the Truth that is contained in the Bible – is it enough Truth for us to follow Jesus? i believe so yeah. but is it all Truth? i don’t know that i would say it is because i believe God is living and working today and that there is Truth outside of the Bible [not that contradicts anything in the Bible for sure]
because i believe God is bigger than that – just as i believe He is bigger than being able to be fit completely into an ark or a tabernacle or a temple, or even us…
i’m not sure this discussion/argument on ‘paper’ is the most conducive thing – i imagine if we sat and had a drink together we would still pretty much be largely on the same page with all of this stuff – i don’t believe that all roads lead to Rome but i do think the context is different now than in the old testament when God sent Israel to go and destroy other nations with different beliefs [i don’t think He is calling us to do that today] – but the idea i heard recently that i enjoyed [and am still trying to process and figure out] is that when we see the fruits of the Spirit [love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness, self-control] it is evident of the Holy Spirit at work [whether the person is Christian or not] and the evidence that God is working all around [that’s what Jesus said when He said I can’t do anything the Father is not already doing or something to that effect] both in Christians and in non-Christians, drawing them to Himself… that sounds like a big picture of a Loving God. and that is the kind of work i want to draw alongside and put my hand on.