In the last day of so, i have seen the phrase and hashtag, “Christian Cleavage” showing up all over the internet and so, being a curious guy, went to take a look at what my extended family is up to this time.
Turns out it all started [was re-ignited?] when an apparently prominent Christian blogger, Jarrid Wilson, wrote a blog post titled, ‘The Problem with Christian Cleavage’ that apparently caused so much controversy and mayhem that he quickly took it down, tweaked it a little and replaced it with the new version titled ‘The Importance of Modesty and Self-Control.’
This is not a new topic in the church. ‘Girls coming to church with their boobs hanging out’ has been debated probably from the time Adam sent Eve out to the nearest fig tree for ‘a quick shop’.
This is something i have had a fairly strong opinion on for a fairly long time, but knowing how minefieldy [it’s a word!] a topic this is, have tended to wait until it blows over – the people on both sides of this heated conversation can get quite animated and pointy.
IN THE LEFT CORNER
Jayson D Bradley’s ‘Christian Cleavage probably isn’t the problem’ which was reposted on Relevant Magazine was the first article i found, subtitled ‘Our talks about modesty break down when we assume the worst of everyone.’ Typically this has been largely the stance of women on the matter, feeling the need [often merited] to have to stand up for themselves. And there is so much truth in this.
Jayson ends his article with three points which he briefly extrapolates:
Some of Church’s teaching on the topic can be drawn out to send the wrong message when we tell both men and women that:
1. Men can’t be responsible for their behaviour.
2. There’s something shameful about women’s bodies.
3. Sexuality is the most important issue in the world.
Taken to a broader perspective than simply what women wear to church, this conversation spills over into the even more significant one that was all over social media last year when the #YesAllWomen tag and movement gained a lot of attention and focus. Concepts like Rape Culture and slut shaming and the need for a deeper understanding in areas where women have often ended up feeling like the perpetrators rather than the victims when crimes have been committed against them. [Questions like “What was she wearing?” and statements such as, “She had been drinking too much” making it seem as if the woman was somehow responsible for being raped]
Rachel Held Evans deals with this side of what has been dubbed ‘Modesty Culture’ really well in her post, ‘Modesty: I don’t think it means what you think it means’ summing up the church issue side of it well when she writes,
We know what it’s like to be told over and over and over again by red-faced preachers that our legs, our breasts, our curves, our bodies have the bewitching power to “make our brothers stumble.” So it is our responsibility to cover them up, to dress modestly to “please our brothers” by keeping them on the path of righteousness.
She even puts a very different spin on it, reminding us once again how the church likes to elevate certain issues or sins above others and harp on certain things while leaving others [often more mentioned things] largely untouched:
In fact, nearly all of the Bible’s instructions regarding modest clothing refer not to sexuality, but rather materialism (Isaiah 3:16-23, 1 Timothy 2:9-12, 1 Peter 3:3). Writers in both the Old Testament and New Testament express grave concern when the people of God flaunt their wealth by buying expensive clothes and jewelry while many of their neighbors suffered in poverty. (Ironically, I’ve heard dozens of sermons about keeping my legs and my cleavage out of sight, but not one about ensuring my jewelry was not acquired through unjust or exploitive trade practices—which would be much more in keeping with biblical teachings on modesty.)
There is so much truth in what these and other people are saying and quite possibly the loudest Truth on this topic that does need to be spoken and understood and taken seriously. BUT the essence of it leads to the conclusion, stated or not, that guys are ‘the bad guy’ and that it is ALL about guys sorting themselves out and letting women wear whatever the flip they want to.
IN THE RIGHT CORNER
The other side of the argument, i saw demonstrated in this piece by Jennifer Leclaire, titled ‘Why do so many ‘Born-again’ ‘Spirit-filled’ Women show off Cleavage in Church?’ This side of the argument is typically held up by men as it focuses on women needing to be the ones dressing modestly and not ‘causing their Christian brother’s to stumble.’
Crosswalk.com had another article similarly titled, ‘Why Do So Many Women Show Off Cleavage in Church?’ and while this one is written by a guy [could not find his name] it is framed as being a piece brought up by his wife.
Jennifer frames her opinion on the topic in the traditional way of looking at the effect that women’s choices have on the poor, struggling men around them:
Paul instructed Timothy that women should “adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation” (1 Tim. 2:9), and he told the church at Corinth that “our unpresentable parts have greater modesty” (1 Cor. 12:23). Regardless of how hot it is outside or how busy we are, there’s no justification for Spirit-filled women to come to church wearing clothes that cause some men to pay more attention to the things of the flesh than the things of the Spirit.
The second article quotes a previous piece by Sharon Hodde Miller in which she comes up with three possible ways of looking at the issue in a way which doesn’t shame women, but still invites them to be aware of and acting on the issue to some measure:
How do we discuss modesty in a manner that celebrates the female body without objectifying women, and still exhorts women to purity? The first solution is to dispense with body-shaming language. Shame is great at behavior modification, even when the shaming is not overt. But shame-based language is not the rhetoric of Jesus. It is the rhetoric of his Enemy.
Second, we must affirm the value of the female body. The value or meaning of a woman’s body is not the reason for modesty. Women’s bodies are not inherently distracting or tempting. On the contrary, women’s bodies glorify God. Dare I say that a woman’s breasts, hips, bottom, and lips all proclaim the glory of the Lord! Each womanly part honors Him. He created the female body, and it is good.
Finally, language about modesty should focus not on hiding the female body but on understanding the body’s created role. Immodesty is not the improper exposure of the body per se, but the improper orientation of the body. Men and women are urged to pursue a modesty by which our glory is minimized and God’s is maximized. The body, the spirit and the mind all have a created role that is inherently God-centered. When we make ourselves central instead of God, we display the height of immodesty.
i do believe there is some truth in what these and other people are saying. BUT the essence of it leads to the conclusion, stated or not, that women are ‘the bad guy’ and that it is ALL about women sorting themselves out and doing everything they can to ensure that men don’t stumble.
THE BIG BUT
i have stood in the sidelines of this online debate for months, maybe even years. Because i know that taking either one of these sides and holding to it strongly is likely to get you shamed with a ‘How dare you make this all about us?’ from the women if you’re supporting ‘Modesty Culture’ and an equally scathing, ‘What a lousy Christian you are!’ if you fly the ‘Women, wear whatever you want,and men stop being such sexual deviants!’ flag.
But i haven’t been happy.
i haven’t felt that either side has gotten it particularly right.
Because for the most part, it feels like opinions from either side are delivered to a large extent in a manner which comes across very much like, “I’m right and you’re a dick if you think the opposite!”
The extremes are quite extreme on this, and i haven’t read too much that falls closer to some kind of third way, or a call upon both men and women to step up to the plate.
To be honest, i have heard a lot of ‘Me!’
And therein, i believe lies the problem. Or a huge part of it.
Let me state that i do inherently believe the problem is with the guy. i should be able to control myself. It should not be up to the women to have to dress safely so that i don’t stumble. The problem is typically not the women’s. It is the guy who has the struggle.
But having acknowledged that, perhaps as the woman who understands and gets that the issue and problem belongs to the guy, there is a way of responding in Love that sounds a little bit different from, ‘Well you should really just sort yourself out then.’
Perhaps, as someone who recognises a problem in someone else, there is something i can do, as an act of love, to make it easier for them. And this is the point that i have failed to see expressed much if at all.
In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul deals with the very real at the time issue of eating food that had been offered to idols. What is interesting to note is how the chapter begins:
Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
His opinion on the topic is absolute. Food offered to idols is not an issue. It’s not a sin. It is absolutely okay. But then on top of that, he makes provision for someone who may struggle in the area, introducing it with this key line:
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak.
The eating of the food is not the issue, but if you are are in the presence of someone who is weaker and doesn’t get that that is the case, then choosing to stay away from the meat is the most loving thing you can do.
If i am an alcoholic, then the problem is mine. It’s not your problem, it’s not your issue and you should not be blamed for me being an alcoholic. The fact that you choose to drink should not be in any way responsible for me drinking or not. But, if you know that i struggle with alcohol, then surely a loving act, when you invite me round for a meal, would be to not serve alcohol. Not because you have the problem, but because i have the problem, and you are aware of it, and want to love me well by choosing to not even create the smallest bit of temptation.
This feels like the same thing.
To conclude that the problem is with the guy, so i will wear whatever i want, does not feel to me like a loving response.
To get so heated about this topic, whichever side of it you stand on, and be calling the other side names of any type, instead of having some open and honest conversation and really trying to listen to and hear what the other person is saying, feeling, experiencing, also does not feel to me like a very loving response.
And after all, that is the undebatable command – you will be known by the love you have for each other.
Very well put opinion! I agree with your point that it should all be about love. 🙂
Thankx for the visit and the encouragement. This does feel like a bit of a minefield of a topic and here’s hoping people will stop long enough to really hear what is being said…
love brett fish
I just think men should stop wearing tight jeans. Especially when they’re serving as ushers, walking up and down the aisles with the collection plate or the communion supplies. It is just so terribly distracting to have tightly wrapped buns passing by right at eye level.
Definitely a both and.
Or. Just watch those strangely A-Sexual programmes about “primitive” tribes who wear nothing (or next to nothing) and somehow haven’t advanced enough to see what all the fuss is about. What all the fuss is about (and you’re a dick if you don’t agree, of course) is: human beings move to cold places and discover that wearing clothes keeps you warm; wearing clothes makes uncovered body parts more sexual; clothing wearing people create religious and moral values from this; clothe wearing people become politically dominant and spread these taboos back to the warm parts of the world.
I’m not pretending that issues of sexuality, the abuse of, aren’t real. But to be honest religion (whether it be the extreme cover everything up end of the equation, or the more “balanced” (very complicated!) kind of scenario you’re hoping for, isn’t the answer in my immodest opinion.
Nudity/Semi-Nudity/Ankle Reveal shouldn’t automatically mean HORNY! The fact that it sometimes, or even often does is a problem. The way to face the problem is to move in the direction of making nudity normal. Not try and discover where the sin is in all of this.
Is it normal for me, either to see nudity or to be nude. No. But that is my problem, not other peoples.
Oh let’s be honest, you’ve been waiting for the invitation to call me a dick for a long time niw. Ha ha. As for me it’s just the ongoing quest if finding sneakier ways to get you back into the blog you do not read.
Hehe! You had me at cleavage of course! I know you probably realise this, but as well as dialoguing it’s kind of helpful for me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling (or “what I think about stuff”) on your pages sometimes. I come from your background, so it is sometimes a good starting off point for my own godless theology. What you have that is good is a community of people. We spiritual atheists do not have that luxury yet. And the issue of an atheistic morality is still little discussed (though I think it can and should exist).
So, I know that is not the purpose of your blog, but that’s part of the reason I’m here too (still occasionally, because it’s not always good for my heart).
And in all of that I too appreciate that this isn’t the answer for your audience. But hey, some ones got to be an advocate for the devil. (cue sinister laugh). And what’s even worse…A SMILEY 🙂
We are here, the audience that both read Brett’s blog coz its awesome, and are walking a dainty godless path having been former Christians and sort of still battling with finding a foothold in atheism. I am not sure about an atheistic morality though – are we not inherently moral creatures anyways? And once there is a group of people making rules for others, don’t we fall into the same sticky bubble that led me (partly) for example to atheism? Otherwise, cleavage… yes… great hook Brett =D
Oh wow, kind words Felicity. Thank you. Hopefully we can continue to challenge all of our thinking and living.
Sorry, didn’t see this response till just now Felicity. I think we are inherent survivors. And I suspect our moral compass has developed because it helps us survive. I also think our morality (which I think can be inherent, learnt AND consciously developed) has and does adapt. Morality, I think should be explainable. I’m interested in an explanation for what is good and right that is both reasonable and relevant. Not one which was written in another era by human’s in a totally different context and with a totally different world view. Albeit that some of that morality is still relevant and explainably good today.
Perhaps the term an “explainable morality” would have been better than “atheistic morality”. The morality I would espouse, should simply make sense. Whatever a person’s faith stance.
If I have a morality that I think others should share, then I better be able to explain it in a way that makes sense. Doing that, with each other, is an ongoing endeavour for all of us humans, whatever our faith stance.
Do you think maybe its good to wear clothes to stop temptations? For example if two women are standing topless, won’t it cause a man to lust after the one who looks more attractive? What if he is with his wife? The same applies to women. If two men are standing naked, wouldn’t the woman lust after the man with the larger penis? Or the man with the six pack or muscles?
You see, clothing is important as humans will always be tempted more by nakedness than by one who is clothed.
Modern society has evolved to the point where the clothing of the last 100 years is the generally accepted norm. Even in tribes, the men cover their penis in most cases.
In regard to clothes we have adapted, as I mentioned, to varying climates, upon which we have then stuck our moral and religious explanations. I agree that nudity has become taboo. But I’m interested in a morality that makes sense from every direction. What other people and ourselves are comfortable with is necessarily a starting point for how we decide what is moral and what is not. However, it is clearly not, or shouldn’t be our finishing point.
As with every subject, there is no way that we can come to understand it clearly if we bring all of our baggage to the discussion. We need to be “naked” to manage that.
i think getting to know people, and especially love the context of shared meals for that, is a great way to really dig deep into these conversations especially on areas of disagreement or different thinking.
We haven’t got that option Brett. Despite the absence of a dinner table and physical contact I think I’ve raised some fair, and thought through points here, in response to your initial article. If you don’t want to discuss them that’s fine, but the lack of a dinner table isn’t an issue.
Nah, i think you missed my intention there cuzz – i wasn’t talking about you and me – i was saying that we [people in general] would do well to sit down with people we disagree with around meals and simply have some conversations face to face as opposed to simply having stances we don’t budge from. This is currently the best means that you [you] and i have for conversation and discussion and it is great that we can have this back and forth.
i was responding to this: What other people and ourselves are comfortable with is necessarily a starting point for how we decide what is moral and what is not. However, it is clearly not, or shouldn’t be our finishing point.
As with every subject, there is no way that we can come to understand it clearly if we bring all of our baggage to the discussion. We need to be “naked” to manage that.
If I were walking with a girlfriend or wife, I wouldn’t want a man with a 10 inch penis walking naked next to us. The woman may look with lust.
The same for women. If a nude bombshell had to walk past, I would look and be tempted which would not be nice for the wife or girlfriend.
Clothing is a good balance. Cover the private parts is essential.
Where to draw the line? Bhurkas? Who knows, but if a woman must wear a bhurka, then so too should the man.
i’m not sure anyone [except maybe my cuzz] is suggesting we go naked, but your last point sums up my intention on this topic in terms of it being both and as opposed to the ‘you are to blame’ we typically hear from either side…
Yes, the same must apply to both men and women.
This is exactly why my 18yo. daughter has decided to go braless all the time. Because, if women have to wear bras, men should have to, too (in her thinking).
She wants to go braless around my 15yo. son and we had quite a fight to get her to agree to wear a bra in my home for these last 3 weeks before going to college. When she comes home from college, she has decided not to wear the bra here anymore. I have totally lost control of our daughter’s behavior in our home, but that control was lost a long time ago.
I don’t think it is “love” for her to do this with our son around, but she is not a believer and doesn’t care about consideration for those with whom she lives. Maybe when she’s older and a little bit more mature. As a woman, I do understand where she’s coming from, but as a woman married for decades, I also understand the difficulties my son will encounter seeing his sister’s nipples standing at attention through her thin shirts.
Hi Antonia. Thanks for sharing. That sounds like a really complicated situation and i totally hear you and back you, especially as the mom in the house, you get to make those rules. But i can understand how it won’t be easy.
All the best
love brett fish
Can you do a topic on PLASTIC SURGERY?
I understand it is okay for terrible injuries. But what about cosmetic surgery for making the breasts bigger? Penis? Lipo suction? Is it frowned upon in Christian society?
Ooh Larry, that might be too taboo even for me… i’m not a fan but then someone might call me getting a tattoo the same as them getting a nose job [i would disagree] but i like how you bring in the idea of terrible injuries because that is a place where it feels like a good thing – i guess my take, similar to that of tattoos would be on motivation – why are you gettin it? to look younger? to win peoples’ approval? stoppit!
Maybe to find a girlfriend yes.
I didn’t say we should go naked. I’m pretty sure I said that that we should better head in that direction than the other. Clearly the issue from a christian perspective is the one of “temptation”. The desire that could arise to lie with someone other than your own partner.
But the very fact that cultures exist where nudity is a norm show that it is possible to live in that way without moral degradation ensuing. If it is possible, then why shouldn’t it be desirable (frozen body parts not withstanding?).
How do you know there isn’t more adultery/cheating in those cultures? The fact that those cultures exist says nothing whatsoever about these cultures’ behaviors.
I’m quite sure it does Antonia. Which would simply demonstrate that people cheat with or without clothing. Or even that behaviour that we would call cheating (having more than one partner, as seemed to occur for example in the time of Abraham and later) is seen as acceptable. What we see as “traditional” in that way is far from the reality. What is seen as the norm for sexual partnerships has changed and will continue to change through the years.
I’m with you on the jealousy/insecurity thing Larry. But our own insecurities aren’t a good reason for nudity to be labelled immoral.
Larry, I would just like to take a moment to address (relieve) your bigger penis threat as more of a man thing than a woman thing. Most women (generalising) are not bothered by size, but it seems men are more obsessed with this. So please lets not attach “sins” to innocent bystanders =)
Having said that though, I think lustful thoughts are lustful thoughts, and don’t require the exposure of skin or curves or whatever to manifest. One can lust after a woman in a Burqa (sp?) as much as one can lust after a woman in a bikini. In fact some find the hidden mystery of a wrapped up woman more exciting than openly exhibited tidbits. Lust is lust is lust. It is not the domain of the male or the female, it is universal.
I agree with Brett that all actions should come out of a place of love. I would just like to add (if I may) that as much as lust is universal, so is morality, men are not “weaker” as I often feel these sort of connotations later provide excuses for “deviant”/ “I couldn’t help myself” behaviour. We are all accountable.
[Stands and applauds]
“Not be nice”? How is a wife supposed to feel that she is anything special to her husband if he is so filled with desire for every woman that walks by him with a certain type of body shape/look?
Oh, one last thing, more in line with your own take, and as this is clearly a subject close to my heart. Do men who ask or wish for women to dress modestly in church (as the woman’s end of the “love” bargain) still go on holiday to the beach, or for a swim at the pool, where they KNOW that there is going to be a lot of booty on display. Of course they don’t, because that would be what we call in the trade, hypocrisy.
Do those same men and women wear beach gear to business meetings? Cos that is what we in the trade might call appropriateness?
Que?
Actually I’m pretty sure most men would, in my personal experience… and I don’t think that’s wrong. Church is church, and the beach is the beach. They are different environments and hold different purposes.
OK. So in your view God sees something that happens in, what people call a church ,as different to what happens on, what people call a beach. Hmm. I’m pretty sure that some Christians will say that Church is “everywhere that Christian people are”. I’m not unused to these contradictions, but anyhow…
Besides being totally in love with the title, because i think it’s hilarious… i also think this was very brave an risky to write! It took lots of guys for a guy to point out that both sides have issues. I like it and then using scripture to back that up.
Thanks for putting yourself out there and adding a hilarious title… the breast of intentions.
Thank you so much. I am aware of how potentially risky it was/is because of how much shame and pain has been caused especially on the one side. So your encouragement is much appreciated. Thank you.
What needs to be clarified in this whole discussion is what exactly is a guy doing wrong by finding a women attractive. Often people refer to Matt 5:28, but that’s got very little to do with just sexual attraction/thoughts and everything to do with the deliberate harbouring of desire for an illicit relationship with another man’s wife.
Nicely balanced point of view. And I like the point that we should act out of love.
Thank you. That really should be the heart and foundation of what we do, right.
So right!
Great, balanced post – it’s great to empathise with both sides. I think a lot of the time what the ‘I will wear whatever the eff I like’ people are reacting against is the legalistic minutiae of the ‘cover it up’ brigade. I once heard a sermon from a female pastor in which she told us that we should dress like her and wear ‘little cardigans’ over our strappy tops or something, and exactly how short our shorts should be etc. – it was weirdly specific and patronising and I was like, hmm, okay, lady?
But yip, it’s difficult, because it’s good not to cause others to stumble too – I do get that. But I just don’t think that ‘men stumbling’ is as a big an issue as shaming women’s bodies – women have such body issues imposed on them from all quarters, that I really just think it’s an issue that the church should remain compassionately silent on. Men will be faced with temptation like that in the world anyway – I’m not saying porn/ sex addiction is not a very serious problem and struggle, but I don’t think blaming women in the church (who really, are not wearing their bikinis to Sunday services, let’s face it) is the way to face those massive issues. I think, for instance, that talking honestly about sex and self-esteem would be a better way of serving young women who may indeed be dressing to court the wrong type of attention.
Also, another kind of personal point. Girls who are skinny/ boyish/ flat-chested may get shamed for other reasons by our appearance-obsessed society, but they tend to less targeted by the ‘cover-it-uppers’. It is a lot more difficult to dress ‘appropriately’ if you are more generously-proportioned, unless you’re wearing a burka (seriously). I can’t really ‘hide’ my boobs and I don’t want to. They will always be there – even if they are covered. I actually dress fairly conservatively, just because that’s my style, but especially as a younger woman, I used to feel quite ashamed of my boobs, particularly in Christian circles, and I’d wear baggy t-shirts that just made me feel bad about my body. I think if we can avoid making a young woman feel like that, and deal with men’s issues in different ways, then that’s worth a bit of thoughtful silence on ‘modesty’.
i love this Andrea. Spot on. And yes to speaking up about body-shaming for women which could definitely happen more in the church [um the speaking up against it i mean]
Thankx for this!
love b
Cool, B. And I really don’t mean to diminish men’s struggles here at all (or anyone’s struggles with sex addiction/ porn). I think the church also needs to talk more about that, and I love that you discuss it so openly on the blog too. x
No, not at all and it was a bit of an eye opener for me seeing you write it that way – “We deal with this one enough or maybe too much – it’s that one that needs a little more focus, yeah?” which i absolutely agree with. Same way as we choose these sins are bad but who ever preaches against greed? For example. Actually i am in the middle of a post that kinda hits or touches on greed but maybe i should write about that more directly sometime… Thankx for the encouragement, love brett fish
This is a very important point. I have heard too many people say things like “You don’t want men to ogle or yell creepy things at you, do you? Well, if you dress to get attention, that’s the kind you will get.”
However, this gives girls the idea that if a man ogles them or says something inappropriate, they’ve done something to deserve it. Not being “generously proportioned” and grew up rather sheltered, so I never really experienced this– until I moved to Asia, where suddenly I was not only seen as “curvy” but also as somewhat exotic. I was not prepared for this, and every time I saw some guy undressing me with his eyes, or some guy said something disgusting to me, I was analyzing my clothing, thinking “Am I wearing something culturally inappropriate? I saw other girls wearing sleeveless tops but maybe that’s not ok! Or maybe it’s the something I did?” It took me a long to time to come to terms with the fact that I wasn’t doing or wearing or not wearing anything to draw this attention.
Now of course, I don’t think all or even very many men are like that, but the ones who are probably say a lot of things to a lot of women in a single day, so it’s not uncommon either, and girls should not be thinking it’s their fault. I was an adult dealing with this. I cannot imagine what it is like for a 13-14 year old girl.
OH my word. This is the FIRST reasonable, level-headed, biblical, loving response I have heard which actually articulates my own thoughts about this issue. I’m going over this with the girls in my Senior Contemporary Issues/Bible class right now and I am so happy there IS an article online which sums up what we will be discussing and I will be teaching in class. Thank you.
Oh yay, thank you so much and hope it promotes healthy and honest discussion – feel free to use as much of it as you need or print it out or anything…
Thank you so much! Since you gave me permission, I do believe I am going to take you up on that and print it out for my class. We’ve had such great discussion about the beauty of women’s bodies and to not be ashamed – but to also look at what is our responsibility to our fellow believers in Christ, male AND female – our bodies are NOT our own, they are bought with a price – BUT we are beautifully and wonderfully made. I love Scripture. the balance there is so evident. And I do believe you sum it up well (since I have had them look at/read multiple viewpoints and scriptures, and we are winding down our discussion now). Thanks again!
Oh yay.
Do you think churches should only have talk about biblical things? When bands are involved, isn’t there distraction when the guys play with their tops off – six packs showing off.. sweaty? I find many of my guy friends are put off church as it elevates some to levels higher than them. There is christian-privilege or Christian-band privilege if you prefer… It makes the playing field uneven. What are your thoughts on this?
Depends what you mean by “biblical things” as I imagine we might have a different understanding of that. I see all of life as a potentially biblical thing and really believe the church should speak about a lot more for sure starting with racial reconciliation and family and relationships and sexuality and more. Can’t remember guys playing with their tops off in church so assume you mean outside of church? I think modesty or awareness of the other sex and the effect you are having on them definitely works both ways. Each of us needs to be aware and careful and loving to those around us.
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I hear this comparison with alcoholism all the time, and have a few issues with it.
First, I think it’s a bit demeaning to men that you want us to assume they’re basically all lust-addicts. This doesn’t seem like the right take one things, to me. I’ve even heard that men who aren’t that tempted by lust feel insecure because they’re basically being told that to be male is to struggle with lust. I don’t think this is a healthy mindset at all.
Secondly, when you don’t order alcohol out of respect for your friend who’s a recovering alcoholic, that doesn’t mean you’re expected to never drink again, which is basically what is being asked of women- that we change the way we dress at all times and in all places, on the off-chance that we may cause a friend to lust. We don’t treat any other sin this way!!
Third, I get that your post is about wearing certain clothes to church, but recently, I’ve been on the receiving end of some outrage because I mentioned that I wear a swimsuit that shows my stomach, and I do not see a problem with it. I am not wearing my swimsuit to church or the mall or even walking down the street– I wear it at the beach and the pool, where swimsuits are normal and basically everyone is wearing one– but I am told it’s not ok, because my super-sexy tummy flab might cause someone to stumble. To go back to the alcoholic comparison, this is the equivalent of a recovering alcoholic walking into a bar and telling everyone to stop drinking, because they’re tempting him. If you have a problem, and there’s a place where you know you’ll be tempted, the correct response is to not go there, not to go anyway and then complain because you’re being tempted.
Finally, I know this post specifically referenced cleavage, but do you know how insanely detailed and impossible Christian men’s requests about Christian women’s clothing are? Of course we feel like it’s ok to ignore, when Christian men take issue with SO many things!
For example:
Don’t wear shirts with words or patterns on the chest
Shirts should have three inches of loose fabric on all sides
Shirts should not show the stomach at all, even when arms are raised completely above the head (do you know how hard that is to find?)
dresses should not be above the knee
Nothing sleeveless
No bra straps showing (you have no idea how hard those dang things are to keep in place)
No long necklaces- it draws attention the wrong place
Don’t wear red- it’s a “sexy” color (Are you kidding me? How are colors sexy?)
No lace/fishnet stockings
No jeans that gap
No skinny jeans
No yoga pants
No pants (skirts/dresses only)
All that said, I appreciate your post, and that is was respectful and didn’t try to blame women for lust, I’m not putting in this list because I think you are that picky about women’s clothing, but to point out why the “don’t cause your brother to stumble” with regard to modesty is met with frustration, apathy, or anger. EVERY person has a different idea of what is and is not appropriate, and people (both men and women) voice their personal standards of modesty to women ALL THE TIME. Of course we’re defensive, because when I just got done explaining to someone why wearing pants is totally acceptable according to Bible, and they responded by telling me I’m going to hell, I’m not really likely, at that point,to see any criticism of my clothing as reasonable.
But one thing that I’d recommend is that guys are honest and up front about it themselves, as embarrassing as that may be. Perhaps if you hope for women to be as respectful as someone not drinking in front of a recovering alcoholic, you first need to admit be like that alcoholic and admit you have the problem. If you didn’t know someone had a problem with alcohol, no would expect just assume that they a recovering alcoholic and not order a drink in front of them.
Jacqui, i hear you and can imagine it must be quite a difficult one to navigate because everyone has different standards or things that set them off and so on and so i don’t think that coming up a list is going to be as helpful as focusing on attitude. For the most part in this conversation i hear a lot of women coming with the “I’ll wear what i want and don’t tell me what to do” attitude which is probably correct in terms of rights but not all that loving and so really all i’m asking for is for each of us to examine our hearts and for everyone to be mindful of other people. For some – like your list – the opposite extreme is ridiculous – and like you said it’s not blaming women for lust but at the same time i believe is a matter of how can we live well that helps everyone? This covers so many areas beyond clothing and again is a heart attitude over a rights declaration and if each of us live with good hearts thinking about how our actions affect others in all spheres of life then the world will probably quickly become a better place.
I agree, but I think you need to understand the conflicting feedback women get which is naturally making us very defensive. For example, my mother, a wonderful, loving, modest Christian woman bought a shirt for me once, and I wore it school. When I got to my class, I took off my sweatshirt, and my teacher said “Jaquie, your shirt is immodest, either put your coat back on, or I will give a t-shirt to wear over it.” This was because my stomach showed when I took off my sweatshirt (doesn’t this happen to everyone?).
So what was I supposed to do? One adult, whom I trust and respect tells me it’s modest and another tells me it’s immodest. I’ve been told my clothes are immodest so many times, that there doesn’t seem to be a point in even listening- and I’m a dorky homeschooled kid who grew up to be a teacher, so it’s not like I’m going around town in a string-bikini. If someone thinks my clothes are immodest it’s just one more person who had those crazy irrational standards- so you can see why, this this input, it becomes about pleasing ourselves.
To make matters worse, even if we are putting God first and trying to dress in a way we think would please Him, even if our heart is right, we STILL receive this feedback of “that’s not good enough. You’re not REALLY seeking God, or you’d be dressing this way.” And that’s just plain disheartening.
So what I’d ask guys to remember is that just because something is a temptation doesn’t mean there is any immodesty, because I think a lot of these rules that really don’t make practical sense came from a few men who were turned on by something really specific and therefore decided it was immodest and made rule against it.
i hear you and i realise it is a tricky road to walk and if ever trying to please everyone no one will ever make it so it’s not about that – on the other hand though i do think there is a certain amount of if-this-is-not-for-you-then-walk-on-by’ness with this message because there are definitely some women who don’t think about this stuff at all and would do well to consider it whereas it sounds like this is something you have thought a lot about and worked through and wrestled with and so maybe it’s not for you to need to respond any more to this [personally] – your comments are helpful though and reflective of the fact that too many people judge without thinking or considering the other person’s stance, attitude and attempts at living well and that is unfortunate but again we will never please everyone so each of us needs to make decisions we have thought through and which we think are loving to ourselves and others… if you have an “I’ll wear what i want, screw everyone else” attitude [which is not you] then you maybe need to rethink this stuff…
“I do think there is a certain amount of if-this-is-not-for-you-then-walk-on-by’ness with this message”
Of course there is, but for women who are used to being called immodest by people who are dead serious about jeans being immodest, we might not be in any place to hear it or accept it, even if there IS something wrong with what we’re wearing or how we’re wearing it.
This is why I think it’s a problem to have sermons and youth group talks about this subject- in many cases, it’s preaching to the choir- the women who are dressed modestly go home second-guessing everything in their closets, and the women who might be the ones needing to re-think their attitude are just saying “oh this again.”
Another problem with the modesty talks to girls is that youth groups tend to divide the boys and girls and talk to the boys about lust and the girls about modesty. This is wrong. Boysare just as immodest as girls- usually in their behavior rather than their clothing- and girls struggle with lust too. When it’s divided like this, you end up with girls feeling like there’s something horribly wrong with them if lust ends up being a sin they have big struggles with- and I’ve heard some guys say they felt insecure if lust wasn’t a temptation for them, because they’re basically being told that it’s a part of being male. So women and men need to have modesty and lust addressed equally, not one for women and one for men.
I believe the answer much bigger than the church simply needing to talk about it more- I think the answer lies with how we structure our groups within the church. In the past 10 years or so, I’ve seen the separation between different age groups growing bigger and bigger. Older adults groups, families, young marrieds, singles, college, highschool, etc all separated. And the leaders for one group are often only from one age group further up- now this doesn’t mean they aren’t good leaders, but I think that having much older, wiser mentor is very important. Yeah, the high school kids find the college leaders fun and energetic, and that’s not bad, but maybe they also need older and wiser voices in their lives- and not just parents either.
Once younger and newer Christians all have mentors, this is the kind of thing their mentor would address with them one-on-one, rather than giving a sermon or talk to the whole group that just serves to cause judgment and division. I’ve been extremely lucky to have these kind of mentors in my life (as well as Christian parents), who are a voice of reason when I am feeling defensive and argumentative about something where I might actually need to change my perspective. Without that guidance, it’s going to be much harder for women, or men, to be truly certain that their motives in anything are pure. An outside perspective that you trust and respect is invaluable.
i think i agree pretty much with what you say here – if that kind of mentoring was happening then problem largely solved although in my experience as a person and as an observer through the years it typically is not nearly as much as it could be because people selfishly care about themselves over others and so hence these other talks and conversations are needed as the next best thing… everyone should be mentoring and being mentored but i have never seen a great system or community where that happens really well… but i will continue to urge others to do that… cos it can be vital!