my wife and i love children!
other peoples! we love the bit where we get to give them back afterwards. and then return to our childrenless lair.
[okay, it’s not quite a lair, more an intentional community house in the inner city area of kensington, philadelphia… but still, no children living with us in the house at this particular point in time]
so kind of like a choose-your-own-[children]-adventure of sorts – we get to decide when they’re around and get to retreat when they get a little too much for us, or if we just want a break.
and then there was the time i went and watched ‘Scream’ at the local movie house… only problem is, i was trying to watch ‘The Avengers’ at the time… fortunately all that action happened during the trailers and the child was stopped or removed or something before the film began, but it definitely felt like a place that needed to go on a list of places particularly loud and screamery kids are not all that welcome at.
i imagine if you are a parent of a young child [not ‘kid’, you say ‘kid’ and the goat people get riled!] that idea will make you just a little bit sad, and i get that, or at least i would if i wasn’t being so distracted by all the people without children who have all jumped to their feet and burst into spontaneous applause.
because it is a topical issue right? and one, which i imagine for the most part, will have people-with-children on the one side and people-without-children on the other. there will be some exceptions, but i am guessing there will not be too many people-with-children clamouring for more childrenless environments and not too many people with no children whining about the lack of screaming and general chaos in said areas.
“children should be seen and not heard” – for the most part i don’t like that one – especially in places where celebration is happening like at a wedding or in a church service or at a party, i think that a certain messiness adds life to the occasion and i am all for a little bit of hum, or laughter or childlikery. but it is when it crosses the line and becomes a baby crying or a tantrum being thrown where i do appreciate a parent who acts quickly and decisively.
“children should be seen and not herded” – that feels more true – how does the saying go? ‘Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, call a child a kid and some old person slash teacher slash grammar police sergeant will charge in brandishing their “kids are children of goats, you are talking about children which are children of people” sign…’ Maybe not be an actual saying, but it should be!
for me i think the chief point is distraction – if the noise/actions of the child begin to take away from the focus of whatever the event is that you are attending, that is where it becomes a problem. the rising muttering and angry stares being flashed in your direction you should receive as a clue.
so for most happenings of a celebrationary nature, let the little children come to me i say… until they start whining, that is… or fighting, or smelling… then let the little children come to you…
what do you think? [and tell us if you have children or not before commenting]
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Not a parent (yet – wife and I are expecting our first; due in March); and here is how I feel about it: http://thematticuskingdom.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/to-allow-or-not-allow-that-is-the-question/ I expect my opinions on the matter to change drastically next year.
I have two children, one that lives with my wife and I and one who stays far away.
I can completely agree with the time and a place for children thing, there are just some places children shouldn’t be heard, like a movie theatre, nothing wrong with them children being there and laughing at the movie (like I normally do), but it’s really annoying when they comment on everything that happens or throw a tantrum or such. Never mind the age restriction thing (you said you went to see Avengers, as far as I know that’s a PG 13 so children shouldn’t be in there in the first place)
On the other hand, going to a family restaurant and children are running around is acceptable, well it’s a family restaurant so you expect it.
It’s the same thing with the Sunday church services, children shouldn’t be allowed to run around as it can be very distracting, I must admit it’s a lot more distracting since I had children then before, I was able to ignore it more then.
We particularly joined our church because of the freedom children have there. I never wanted church to be boring to our kids (sometimes I call them my chickens), and Iglesia del Barrio, children can be a little noisy at times. If it gets terrible, we will let them go in the Sunday school room.. But I can tell you that I am a lot less distracted and focused by allowing my kids to just be kids during the service than when I am constantly telling them to be quiet. It gives all of us parents, and almost all of us are, a little less stress when our kids do get noisy, and yes, most of us take our kids out if there is a tantrum, but I don’t put up with tantrums ANYWHERE!
niice. i am definitely someone who for the most part feels like a church service is better with kids running around and having a vibe and the setup at Iglesia del Barrio, especially at the moment meeting downstairs is a great one for that cos there is space to do so…
well,from my own prspectve kids shld’nt be allow to stay in adult places cos they alwys imitate wht they see(sexy flirt)
Father of 3, master of none.
I think kids (the human kind) should have the *opportunity* to be just about anywhere in public- and parents should have the fortitude to remove said children if they cannot respect the unofficial and socially-dictated “noise ordinances” of that area. We watched a movie recently with our 2-month old son in my wife’s arms, and he did great- for all but 5 minutes of the movie. She took him out, addressed his needs, came back, and all was fine.
Parents need to have the opportunity to be together in public, and that often means dragging junior/juniors along. Babysitters are expensive for a lot of us, and doubly or triply so when you have more than one kid to leave at home. We have had to leave events too early or not show up at times due to the behavior of our kids, but that call was ours to make; telling us that kids aren’t allowed would have told us that WE weren’t allowed. Most parents know when their kids are being awful- of those parents, a lot of them care enough to handle the situation. The ones that don’t tend to leave a bad name for all of us as a group. We get just as upset with them as you child-less people do- maybe more so, since we know that they are reflecting poorly on us.
Besides, if children weren’t allowed in public, you’d have to leave a lot of your attitude and humor at home!
Steve, i think you have expressed it really well [especially the bit about me not being allowed out a lot] and although i have made my friend Sheralyn [see below] want to cry, that was never the intention – i really was trying to create a catalyst to hopefully springboard some peoples comments on both sides of the parenthood fence… i hope the main part that came out of my blog in terms of emphasis is that it is when they are completely distracting slash ruining an event [tantrum during wedding, crying session during movie not cool and your example provides a great picture of how it can be a both and affair] that they need to be possibly removed or dealt with or whatever…
i think an important thing to be raised is the question Sheralyn is raising on the exclusion of parents with kids from things – they suffer/struggle enough with some of the child rearing stuff as it is [completely dependent on parent and kid in some cases i imagine so will be different for everyone] and so how do we make room for them and maybe there are opportunities for the non parent to volunteer to step in and be the one taking the kid out [not in terms of assassination, was thinking more accompaniment] so that the parent gets to enjoy the end of the movie/wedding etc and so there is definitely a lot of space for community to work well here and for people to get creative…
I love being at events with family/friends/teens because they are all potential child-assassins … I mean, interveners… when the going gets tough. Young children naturally follow around a solitary teenager, and I’ve had that work out for the better so many times. In case you wonder why so many parents carry around diaper bags/huge purses/backpacks, it is because we have them filled with distractions and “cool things” that will divert a kid’s energy from meltdown to cool-down in seconds. If I REALLY want to be somewhere and my kids are making it difficult, I’ll fire up a game on my cell phone for one kid, pull out a snack for the second, and hand my keys or watch to the third.
This usually results in 5 seconds of peace followed by an escalatingly insane jealousy by each kid, complaining that they didn’t get what they wanted. After we trade- then trade back to how it was originally because they change their mind again immediately- they’ll be good for awhile. It just takes impeccable skill, foresight, agility, tone-usage, and timing. All in a day’s work for a parent.
Removing kids from a situation about to boil over is a great practice when possible, but sucks as a parent if you actually wanted to be there. It also isn’t easy when you’re carrying a baby in one arm, diaper bag in the other arm, food for yourself and your spouse in a third arm, baby stroller filled with everyone’s coats in a fourth…
So the point here is, find a lonely teenager who will make eye contact with your kids. If you do that, your night at the event is freed up and the teenager learns a valuable lesson- don’t have children!
ha ha some good advice mixed in with a ‘don’t have children’ finale… good thing i know you steve… when is number four due?
and performing a service for lonely teenagers… you should get paid!!!
I love your take on this issue. I had to leave the baptism of my god daughter and her other 3 adopted sisters to take my temper induced son for a walk around the block. Embarrasing to me, understood by everyone else and much appreciated by the rest of the congregation who do not know me or the behavioral issues my son suffers from.
thanks for sharing and it does feel like a bit of a pity that there was not someone less involved with the happening who could not have perhaps taken your son out and entertained him so that you didn’t have to miss the ceremony altho i do hear you speaking of the behavioural issues so maybe that was not an option…
your blog post was an excellent one i would love to share as it contains some practical ideas for parents and great creativity and understanding – http://becomeawomanofstrength.com/2012/10/25/an-outing-with-a-child – thank you.
thank you for sharing my blog. I love how you opened your post for further discussion, it was a great idea and really embodies the discussion of the issue.
absolute pleasure – this topic seems to be both a source of pain and of joy and of celebration for different people and some have overlapping experiences and hopefully by seeing some of the advice and stories there will be parents going ‘Aha what a great idea!’ and benefiting from it – always just so great to see people commenting so amiably on something that could have gotten out of hand and nasty so feels like a big win – thanks for the encouragement you have been doing on individual comments.
As a parent of a child who screams a lot… no matter what I do-just been walking around the block for the last hour. This blog makes me want to cry. Having a screaming child breaks your heart enough. Without having to deal with the whole feeling of I am no longer welcome to at least try any enjoy some of the things I used to.
Longer welcome
hey Sheralyn – firstly, sorry for making you almost cry, secondly i wrote some stuff in my reply to Steve’s comment above so this is a bit of a continuation of that [his block was getting too big] – part of the blog post was the hope that it would inspire the parents to speak out and have a space to speak of things like exclusion, and separation and lack of welcome and so on which you have raised [not implying that i want to be instigators of those things at all but hoping that together as community we can get creative with the solutions we come up with so that banks aren’t broken with babysitting and families aren’t split up with no-children-welcome events…
and then the other side of the question for those with kids to consider is the consideration for the other person [maybe the one you are not in relationship with] – so as much as it would be cool for parent with child to watch movie and child starts crying, what about the complete stranger that just paid their expensive bucks to watch a movie and is having their experience affected by something they didn’t sign up for…
and another interesting thing to hear would be some thoughts from some parents of young children on ways in which they have noticed a shift happen in them before and after they had their children – is there anyone that had an attitude of “children should be banned from everything” and now they have children and an attitude of “children should be allowed at everything” – i think that would be an interesting dynamic to hear some thoughts on – i imagine some people [like yourself i would guess] are so children friendly that there probably was not too much change on who you were as a person except obviously in terms of awareness of how it now negatively affects you more… but someone who noticed a huge shift in themselves as a result of having a child – i think that would be an interesting voice to hear…
This is a big reason we (parents) tend to change crowds after having kids- the other parents are far more likely to understand the situation than non-parents will, and are somewhat less likely to try to give you advice (but more likely to help in a tangible way). I hope you can find and be a part of groups where there are parents who understand. The transition time is a hard time, and not always successful. When you feel alone with an unhappy child, shunned from society… I feel your pain and know those tears.
Sheralyn, I have been there. My son was a terror between the age of 2 and 9. Then I found help. He was diagnosed with a behavior issue. He has been under behavior modification for the past three years and things are getting better. The BIGGEST change was the use of a boredom bag. Ours started out with cars and coloring books and has escalated to portable video games (except church). A reward system also works. if you have to be somewhere for an hour like church just give them a sticker or something for evey ten minutes they sit quietly coloring and soon you’ll be able to enjoy the whole service. You could also add a new toy if he/she lasts the whole time without being escorted out by mom.
at the end of the day i am really just wanting to promote some Love-filled discussion from all sides of this story/debate – i really think there are ways in which people on both sides [those who have children and those who don’t] can do better in terms of being more sensitive to the other and maybe more self-sacrificing in terms of how we lift up the other person and i imagine those who don’t have children probably need to cross the line and get creative more than those who do have children.
also it can quite quickly feel as if we are discussing “a burden to bear” and we need to remember that it is not that at all – we are talking about beautiful children full of life and loved by God and we need to keep that in mind [and beautiful mothers and fathers and those who don’t have children] – creative solutions to a situation that might be burdensome but we are never trying to remove “the burden” in terms of a person, just create situations that are more conducive to all…
thanks for sharing, guys…
Being a parent is the weirdest experience of my life (so far). I have never felt love for someone like this. I am totally in love with my spouse, but the love I feel for my daughter is so different and lacks any sort of selfishness. Parenting is a daunting task when you realize the long-term effects your actions will have on your child’s life. I want to make sure my child learns the skills in her childhood to be happy and loving adult. I also want to teach her to treat other people with respect and have a positive impact on the world.
It is hard to describe how being a parent permeates all aspects of one’s life. Sleep, for the first few years, is hard to come by and the exhaustion compounds as the sleepless nights pass. Sickness, when your body is screaming at you to rest is impossible to manage because your child is sick too and probably was the reservoir of germs that made you sick in the first place. Eating becomes a race with your spouse to see who can consume sustenance first before the child is throwing her food on the floor and smearing food through her hair. Showering becomes a well-timed event around naps, but if that window of opportunity has passed and you have to shower with the child in the same room and expect to have the shower curtain thrown to the side, water all over the floor, or more disturbingly realize when you turn the water off that the splashing sound you hear is your child’s hand in the toilet bowl.
I have experienced my share of meltdowns in the grocery store, my child screaming at the top of her lungs because she wants to walk and pull items off the shelves. Strangers staring wondering why I do not stop the screaming, not realizing I have done everything I possibly can at that point. I put my head down and scramble to find the items I need to finish dinner. I have been in restaurants where my child was so inconsolable that my husband and I took turns walking with her while the other one ate.
For what it is worth here is my take-away advice. Parents have a tremendous task and do not always have the energy to address yet another meltdown or screaming fit. Sometimes, ignoring negative behavior is more effecting than responding to it. Additionally, parents need to realize appropriate places to take their children. Parents should realize their child’s limitations before expecting them to be on good behavior (Ask yourself is your child too tired? Too hungry? Too bored?).
Lastly, my confession is that even as a parent who has “been there” I recently told my husband that if I go to all the trouble to find a babysitter for us to go out ‘sans child’ I DO NOT want someone else’s child screaming beside me.
thanks Heather. great balance of sharing in there and really good for those of us without children of our own to be reminded of all the hecticness that can come with it [altho i am only too aware of a lot of that which is perhaps a reason why in my selfishness i am not leaning towards having kids – don’t let me tell you the evil stares/comments that declaration gets – but maybe in my graciousness it is an opportunity for me to have the energy for other peoples kids like recently at a festival we were at where i took time to hang with one delightful little boy for probably more minutes than hours and it meant a huge lot to his parents but was absolutely no big deal for me to do – so definitely needs to be understanding, creativity and partnership from both sides which is why i get excited so much about the idea of community and the church when it operates properly as a body…] yay for you both! keep on my friend who has an incredibly well timed birthday!
Bruce, 37, father of three.
I’m not sure that I can add anything here other than the fact that I think we’ve lost the idea in modern society of kids being raised in (and by) the village. In real community, kids are a natural part of that society, screaming, warts and all.
That’s another problem I have with the church these days. Kids are rarely welcome in their natural way of being because we’re no longer a village.
What has happened is that “etiquette” (probably invented by some pompous victorian dumbass) has dictated what is and isn’t acceptable. A crying, or even screaming kid, is not necessarily naughty. She’s just a child, being a child.
My wife and I, however, are intentional about reading situations and whether or not our kids’ behaviour is impacting negatively on others’ experience of a moment or situation. That’s parents having social skills.
Just 5 cents worth there. Great post, Brett. Good conversation brewing here.
great value for cents my friend – think the discussion and sharing generated has been a whole lot more valuable than the post itself and so maybe that means the post set out what it was supposed to achieve – LOVE the mention of the village raising the child – i think individualism is to blame alongside the aforementioned ‘pompous victorian dumbass’ – and the idea of the body of Christ as opposed to the bodies of Christ which is usually what you are left with lying bloody, bruised and broken all over the floor when body/village is sacrificed for me/myself/i… if we start to view each other with more of Christ’s Love then the problem [if it is even that most of the time, sometimes just the perception of a problem] will largely take care of itself and something beautiful will have been created… [i love children running around in church… and kids… we need more goats let loose in our church services… might loosen us up a little]
Agreed!
I couldn’t agree more, since those are the exact words I used in my post. It does take a village to raise a child 🙂
completely and here is said blog post which is really good and worth a read [i am assuming you will not mind if i share your stuff] – http://bohemianmamma.wordpress.com/2012/10/24/weekly-writing-challenge-mind-the-gap
Thank ‘s for sharing my 2 cents Brett, that’s really kind of you!
it was a great two cents, closer to 8 i’d say… thankx for letting me – keep on!
So as a 20-something without kids (human or goat kind) I find this blog- and your insights to be very interesting.
I am a massive advocate for Children getting to be involved in stuff-at my brother’s church my nephew (2yrs) grabs a toy drum and parks himself next to the drummer in the worship band for the whole worship time-he has learnt when to drum and when not to drum and absolutely loves being part of the band! It would have been easy for my brother to worry about what others thought and the fact that sometimes my nephew gets it wrong and will drum away during a prayer or something, but the general feeling is that this is a child who is worshipping in his own way at 2yrs and having children who feel free to be children is so important-especially in church! Jesus reminds us to be like children-so I love it when I see children do socially unacceptable things cuz it reminds me to breAk the rules of comfortable social norms every once in a while- children deal with raw emotion which may result in a loud snot-filled tantrum but it’s pure emotion- I think there is a lot to learn from that- that it’s ok to have a tantrum sometimes (to God-in order to let him heal our disappointments and not grow bitter by storing it all up like a grown-up)…
I dunno these are just my thoughts-I do think it’s important for parents to consider what is appropriate for their kids to be at-not really on what’s socially acceptable but more of what their kids are being exposed to, but maybe that’s just cuz I work with families who abuse drugs?!!
On a final note I think that being around kids is life giving and a gift- we also get to be role models and I guess rather than getting annoyed at the noisy kid or the ‘unthoughtful parents’ we could put ourselves in their shoes and not be another pair of judgey eyes’-compassion and prayer for them.
That is awesome that he is accepted as part of the worship band. Our church has similar views on children in service.
Interesting topic! At our wedding 4 years ago we said ‘no children allowed’. Now I have a six month old and have to go to a wedding soon with also ‘no children allowed’ and it’s absolute agony!! Whaaa! I just want to keep my baby with me on my lap, but have to find a babysitter in another town now. People who do not have children will only really understand when they do have children 🙂
So many things I only really understand now that I have children! Like the other day I looked down at my hands and thought: Now I understand why my mother’s hands always looked the way they did… I always thought she could take better care of herself, but now with Alex and my hands constantly washing, cleaning, etc., I do understand why my mother’s hands looked the way they did! A bit off the topic, but, yeah, I can’t help but wonder now whether I caused any stress for friends way back when we got married by not allowing babies. Older children who eat half plates and run around like crazy – they should be ‘babysat’ for the night, but small babies should be allowed to stay with their mums:-)
Our little one sleeps in our bedroom, a whole new topic, but I find it interesting that in nature a mother will never leave her little baby in some other cave while she goes off to sleep in her own cave – she sleeps with her baby! Anyways! Another interesting thing – I was NEVER a baby person before I had Alex… I think I have held one baby once before for a few seconds. But since Alex… everything changed… I would do anything to alleviate his pain, troubles, sore bum, painful gums or ears:-) I can’t kiss him enough.
Moral of my story – you will truly only really understand when you have kids!
ah thankx Nicolette – really good to hear that specific perspective on things… i guess that means that some of us may never quite understand [and that’s okay] but we can and should always try to be more understanding… and dive in to help where we can…
Christie, mom of 4
(2 of whom are “genetically enhanced” which is the fashionable way to say they have special needs)
You definitely made me laugh, so extra points for that! I think the whole issue is a spectrum with extremes that none of us would like (children locked away vs. running absolutely wild). Yes, there are thoughtless/lazy/selfish/rude parents out there, but I think most parents who seem that way are really just overwhelmed/desperate/near-catatonic-due-to-exhaustian/doing-the-best-we-can. In blogging on this topic I was angrier and more defensive than usual. Maybe even a bit offensive, because Mama Bear is not someone to mess with.
That said, I’ve been on the other side too, so I know how difficult and annoying it is. But trust me, it’s worse, so much worse when you’re the parent wrestling a grumpy child out the door while everyone else enjoys their night. Yet, this is the job. And it’s worth it.
amazing share Christie, thank you so much! we will never fully understand but we can try and empathise for sure… and work on our patience and grace and servanthood…
Since we’re all leaving our two cents…
A lot of what has been said here is what I feel, I guess I just want to “second” all of it.
When my husband and I got pregnant with our first it was a surprise; we had wanted to be able enjoy eachother and our slow-growing group of peer friends. That ended up on the proverbial back burner. We began being put into a different group automatically whether we wanted to or not.
I remember as a pregnant (young) woman feeling that I was the same person I was before; I enjoyed the same things, had the same personality – but all of a sudden I was being lumped in with the mom group – before I even had “mom friends”.
The transition from no kids to kids is hard enough as it is without it being forced on you early.
That aside…
Once we actually had more than one child and had transitioned a little more into the people-with-kids world we still found many situations precarious.
I understand people who have no desire to have children wanting a quiet dinner out. We truly try to respect that for others. We (I) also hope others understand that going out in public – ANY public is a vacation to a stay-at-home mom. I love my kids, but in order to love them I must keep my sanity.
I have 3 children: 2months, 2 years, and 4 years. No matter how well behaved they usually are they are still learning human beings.
That’s the key that those with no children have to understand. We are fully-formed adults; we know the unwritten social rules. As a growing, learning 4 year-old (or pick an age!) they are still learning those “rules”. Sometimes – no MANY times – learning happens in a public place. The only way my 4 year-old is going to learn how to behave in public is to BE in public.
So for now – that’s my two cents.
great stuff, lady, thankx so much for sharing. appreciate it, you and the immense craziness wrapped up in being a parent, or multiple parent…
Mother of 4 kids (yeah, cause sometimes I thinl they may have a little bit of goat in there somewhere)…ages 16, 9, 6 & 2.. Also surrogating for a childless couple who have no idea what will be happening to them in 9 weeks & 6 days!!!
I so dig my children!! They rock my world! They make me laugh, they make me cry & they make me proud to be a person with a womb!! I do admit, I find it sad when people get all uptight when kids r in places they feel kids shouldn’t be. Come on, man, have a heart!! Sometimes the moms & dads have no choice!! They may also want to see the movie or eat @ a nice restaurant or walk in the mall like normal childless or old folks!! My kids r crazy! We live on a farm!! They climb on stuff, they don’t understand the ‘small voice’ concept! But they r kind, generous, friendly & they love Jesus! They’ll pray for u if your hurt & they’ll have no issue about telling people that Jesus loves them! They obey when we tell them to & they (like said) rock my world!! I feel people should make sure that they always have friends with little children, just so that they don’t loose the grace for moms & dads raising the next generation of leaders, teachers, doctors, evangelists… Imagine the impact a kind adult that doesn’t frown every time they make a sound can have on a 6 year old!! & teenagers!!! Love those guys even more!! Get to know a few of them! Invite them for a meal, a game, a movie.. It’s amazing what happens when u just make time to love them abit..
Portect our joung children.. Love them enough to not just care and be outraged when someone rapes, burn or kills a baby.. Love them enough when someone denies them basic right of living in life, just like all of us.. Ok.. I think I’m done..